Reema Moussa  0:01  
From the internet law and policy foundry, this is the tech policy grind podcast. Every two weeks, we'll discuss recent developments and exciting topics in the technology and internet law and policy space. I'm Reema Moussa, and I'm a member of the fourth cohort of foundry fellows. The Foundry is a collaborative organization for internet law and policy professionals who are passionate about disruptive innovation.

Reema Mousa 0:35  
May is Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month and in honor of this month's celebration foundry fellow Ellen Magallanes sat down with Carmen Low of white and case and Mike Pham, of the Wikimedia Foundation, to discuss the model minority myth and their personal experiences with how this myth plays into the world of tech

Ellen Magallanes  0:56  
My name is Ellen and I'll be your host for today. I'm a fellow at the Internet Law and Policy foundry and my day job is working at the Wikimedia Foundation on the privacy team. By way of background, I'm Filipino Australian (did you know that there's no such thing as Asian Australian, each country retains its distinct national label) and an immigrant to America. I'm very excited to introduce to you the guests that gathered to join me today. First up, Carmen Low associate in the IP litigation group at White and case which is an international law firm. She has also been on secondment at a major tech company. Next up Mike Pham, Senior Product Manager at the Wikimedia Foundation. This is going to be a bit of a personal episode considering our AAPI Heritage and diversity in tech focus. Why don't you both tell us a bit more about your heritage and background?

Carmen Lo  1:43  
Thanks so much, Ellen. So I was born in Hong Kong. And at the age of three, my family immigrated to the United States to the Bay Area. We lived in Oakland for a year and then moved to the East Bay. And in high school, I moved up to Seattle. And I came back down to California for undergrad and for grad school. So I like to consider myself a California girl through and through. And I grew up in my household speaking mainly Cantonese, and I took ESL classes when I was a kid. And now I'm an attorney at a major international law firm.

Mike Pham  2:24  
Yeah, I'm Mike, I am Vietnamese. My parents are Vietnamese. So Vietnamese-American. I kind of have a long origin story. I guess my parents are from Vietnam, they came over to the US for school, right around the Vietnam War. And so, you know, as Saigon fell, like a lot of my relatives ended up coming to the US as somewhere between refugees and immigrants, I guess, maybe both. I was born in Houston, in Texas in the US. But when I was five, my family moved to Saudi Arabia. So I ended up growing up in the Middle East for 10 years, before coming back to go to high school. And then I was in Jersey, New Jersey that I was in Ohio for undergrad I did grad school in Chicago. I've lived in New York, in Toronto. I'm kind of like, a little bit all over the place. Right now. I have family still in Texas. My parents have been living overseas in Asia for a long time in between the Middle East and East Asia, Southeast Asia. So they're currently in Thailand, moving back to the US this summer. So a little bit of everything. I think, I think we're called Third Culture kids, being, you know, the child of immigrant parents growing up in a third country altogether. So I guess, gives me some interesting perspectives once in a while.

Ellen Magallanes  3:49  
Thank you both for sharing your backgrounds. I think it's so interesting to see our origin stories, and it will help you know, as we discuss this topic, explaining our origin story will help inform you know, who we are and why we have the opinions that we have. And yeah, thank you for sharing. And before we go on, I do want to make a couple of things clear- add a few disclaimers. So this is - with the three of us - not a monolithic response or experience for the Asian American community, we do not represent all groups. We also recognize that diversity and inclusion is a topic for which many have poured years of academic research and professional experiences. Although we are members of respective diversity and inclusion interest groups at our companies and organizations, we are not professionals in this space. And if you're interested in learning more, we urge you to continue your education beyond what we will be doing in today's podcast. Now, with that out of the way, let's go to Topic One breaking down the model minority myth. We're going to start with who are Asian Americans. We're gonna throw that to both of you.

Mike Pham  4:53  
I think it's it's a difficult thing and I don't think there's a single answer and I suspect if you ask different people, you'll get different answers. I am part of the employee resource group at the Wikimedia Foundation for we it's called the Asian Roots ERG and we're trying to support the different Asian staff and contractors. And I think we had this exact kind of issue about, like inclusiveness and who belongs, and how do we create a space for Asians? And, you know, what does being Asian mean? And I think really the, we didn't have a solid answer, right. And I think that there's a geographical definition of saying, like, well, there's this continent, we called Asia, and it has geographic boundaries. And, you know, if you're from this continent, then sure, maybe you're Asian, and that sometimes feels a little bit, too generalizing in a way, right? Like, if you are from the Middle East, or Central Asia versus like, you know, Southeast Asia, there's a lot of differences between those different cultures, different languages, different people. And I think it becomes a question of, you know, like, for what purpose? Are we trying to group these people together? What are we trying to achieve? You know, if we're talking about like, oh, timezone, disparities make work working remote, really difficult. And this becomes kind of relevant that everyone on the continent of Asia might be in a different timezone than like, the US and Europe and it's relevant. And then, of course, if we're talking about this specific, you know, political or economic situation of a certain country, then does it still make sense to kind of group everybody else that's like, Asian into that same group at the same time? So anyway, you know, I think it's just really difficult. And it becomes a question of like, what are you trying to achieve? In terms of the people you're trying to talk about? Does it make sense to group them together as Asians as a monolithic group, which can be bad in terms of how generalizing it is, but it can also lend itself a certain type of solidarity by saying there's a lot of people that are being similarly affected in a certain way, and can stand together to enact some kind of change. So yeah, I mean, there's no easy answer, it's pretty context dependent. Maybe Carmen has a better answer than me.

Carmen Lo  7:06  
Oh, my God definitely won't have a better answer. But I definitely agree with everything that you said, and particularly the idea that the term Asian American can seem really incoherent to me, because it's a huge continent. And in I feel like in America, it can be really anyone of Asian descent or, you know, either recently immigrated or even descendants of those immigrants. So amongst, you know, according to the US Census, there's very specific people who are considered Asian American. And it can be a recent immigrant from China, or it can also be, you know, a native Hawaiian Islander. And there's vastly different histories and challenges that can be faced by people of those groups. You know, the diversity of it is something I definitely want to make sure that is understood. It's there's such a vast number of religions, skin color, immigration status, languages. But at the same time, I think there can be a power to the identity of Asian American generally speaking, people who look a certain way who look Asian, do experience, you know, the symptoms of systemic and institutional racism in the United States. And that's why it can be really powerful that when you have this coalition of people who may identify under that umbrella term of Asian American, it can be very powerful in terms of binding together, especially with other groups of color and underrepresented groups to create change, and to break down these systemic barriers that exist.

Ellen Magallanes  8:54  
I love that imagery, so much - a coalition to break down barriers uniting, you know, people of, again, difficult to define uniting people in their in their experience of systemic racism that happens against them. I love that - particularly coming from, you know, Australia where we don't have an Asian Australian identity. So my my whole experience of Asian American has been, like the past two years, I've been living in the US. And, you know, because I'm not American, I did some research, I learned about the impact of immigration law on the whole Asian American experience. There was specifically a 1965 Immigration Act, which reversed the use of restrictive immigration policies that virtually banned all immigration from Asia, allowing for a greater number of immigrants to enter the United States from non western countries, including countries in Asia and Latin America. Although this lifted previous geographic restrictions it allowed only those with certain backgrounds to enter the United States. After immediate family members of those already in the United States. The second priority was recruiting professionals and scientists and as a result a large influx of highly educated professionals. As, such as doctors and engineers and scientists from Asia left their home countries after 1965 and immigrated to the United States. It is this group of Asian Americans and their children that make up a significant portion of the Asian American community today, I think this starts to tie in, with what we're next going to discuss, which is the model minority myth. Now, what is it before I throw it to both of you, I'm gonna let you know I cheated. Well,  I didn't cheat Wikipedia is a resource for all of us. And here is a definition from Wikipedia what model minority is, it is "a minority demographic, whether based on ethnicity, race, or religion, whose members are perceived as achieving a higher degree of socio economic success than the population average, thus serving as a reference group to outgroups. The concept is controversial, as it has historically been used to suggest that there is no need for government intervention in socio economic disparities between certain racial groups." Wow. So that's a lot. What do you both think?

Carmen Lo  10:59  
What do I think about the model minority myth, I think that it is racist, and it's a terrible stereotype against Asian Americans. And, you know, we can discuss in more detail about how we can break that down. But to put what you just said, into kind of layman's terms, it's this idea that, you know, hey, look, Asian Americans are doing so well. I think all people of color in this country should be like Asians, and, you know, make all the money that they make get into higher education like they do. And the idea essentially says: Look, in America, Asians are minorities, and yet they can do so well. So hey, what's wrong with you? Other people of color? What's wrong with black Americans? What's wrong with Latinx Americans? If they can't do the same thing that Asians do - you're trying to say that there's so much racism here, but look at how great Asians are doing.

Mike Pham  12:08  
Yeah, I think there's something important here to the point that like is we were just talking about identity and what it means to be Asian, or Asian American. And in the context of the model minority myth and this idea that, you know, other people are labeling us as the "good minority". I think what's important to also point out is that that is somebody else creating this identity for us, right? And like, you know, I can't say for sure, if my parents came over from Vietnam, and we're like, oh, we're definitely Asians, right? Like, they would certainly say they're Vietnamese. But, you know, to what Ellen was saying about, there's no, you know, pan asian kind of identity in parts of the world, like, so where does that come from? Right. And I think part of the answer is that, like, it's not always internally motivated, you know, there's some external force, you know, like, under like, racist, white supremacy, or whatever that is gonna say, Oh, here's a group of people, they all look the same to us. So we're just gonna call them Asians, and obscure these differences, and then make sweeping generalizations about these people. And so I think, being Asian, there's kind of this disconnect when you are confronted with that, or you're like, Well, I'm kind of a part of it. But I didn't, I didn't come up with this either, right? Like I kind of was confronted with this category that I guess I fall into, but what does it mean? Well, it might not mean that much coming from the people who are a part of it, because it wasn't created by those people for themselves. Even if it's eventually adopted by Asians, you know, I think my parents now do kind of have this idea of like, oh, that person's like Asian, and like, even though they're not Vietnamese, and so there's just some concept and adoption of that idea. That Asian is like a broader identity. But I think that could only work kind of in contrast and juxtaposition to, you know, what it means to not be Asian, which means something at least in America, when you're not white, right? Like you're, you're going to have a very different experience of the world and that kind of racism towards Asians or any other any other group is kind of what cements that kind of identity as being some at least perceived real, living lived experience, just because there's some effect of having that identity.

Ellen Magallanes  14:25  
I'd like to throw a question out to both of you. So you've both worked, you know, in tech. And I think that Asians or Asians in Tech have a very specific stereotype. You know, how does the model minority myth work in tech, you know, is it alive and thriving and tech is it is not really happening? What do you think?

Carmen Lo  14:47  
So I'll point out there, there was a 2015 study that showed that specifically focused on tech and it was done by it was done by Ascend which is a pan-asian business professional organization. And it specifically was looking at the diversity numbers in major tech companies. And it found that even though Asian men and women made up a large portion of the entry level professional workforce, white men and women were twice as likely as Asians to become executives, and held almost three times the number of executive jobs. And I think this is really indicative of the stereotypes. Well, it's a lot of things. It's the immigration patterns, and also stereotypes that Asian Americans face, particularly in the tech field. I mean, I've heard so much working in this field that, you know, it's Asians really don't face any barriers, just look around you, there are so many engineers. And really, that erases a lot of the racism that we do feel on a daily basis, really, in any industry, and including tech, even if it looks like there's a lot of us. But what you see is that, because of immigration patterns, people from Asia, were able to come over here with h1 B visas, in order to have these professional fields and to work in these professional fields. But then, when it comes to the ability of companies to actually look at Asian Americans and see leadership and put us into the management or executive levels, we are not being promoted at the same level, or at the same rate as white men and women. And part of it has to do with the stereotype that gets placed on us that we are docile, we're good workers. You know, we show up we work hard, we put our heads down. We can do things, check things off the checklist and get things done. But we're not the leaders. So that is, in many ways, the way that the model minority myth, absolutely, that these stereotypes continue to be alive, and the way that it affects us in the tech field.

Mike Pham  17:27  
Yeah, I wanted to echo that, like, certainly, in my own experience at different jobs in tech, like, there definitely is a bit of tokenization. Right, because I think every company now is pretty aware that they want to have diversity, and it's important. And, you know, even the holdouts, like meritocracy are still like, well, I guess the bottom line is that having a diverse workforce does actually make us more money, right, like, and so even like, the most cynical people are kind of like slowly coming around to the fact that you shouldn't have like an all white company. But I mean, and I think what happens then is there's drives towards, you know, diverse hiring and having a lot of diversity in your company. And it becomes this really easy way of just pointing at Asians, who are often engineers or whatever, and, and just saying, like, oh, you know, we're doing a great job. We're like, such a diverse company, because we hired like, you know, six Asian engineers this month or something. And, you know, there's something disingenuous about that. And just very, yeah, tokenizing. And I don't think it does other groups, other minority groups or other, you know, historically underserved groups, any favors. For us to be kind of used in that way against them, it doesn't do us any favors. And it's, you know, I think it's a problematic way of approaching diversity. That kind of is co-opting Asian Americans and how we got here through these immigration patterns, and etc. And the other thing, I think, with the model minority that you made me think of Carmen is that, you know, I think this is where this, this myth and this kind of pervasive stereotype can harm us as well. And in terms of, if we adopt these kind of same myths, and we start to believe in them ourselves. And I think I've seen this with people I know. You know, I think that like, by believing the model minority that we have this avenue of success if we work hard enough, because like, you know, we are doing pretty well. We do, like if we do work hard, we can make it and like, look, some of these people did make it and maybe like our average income is high, like, there's some avenue to success, or at least it looks like there's some road to success through like, like hard work and whatever. And it's not just racism, it's not just like institutional blockers to us. It's just like, all individual effort and we should just kind of work harder and and we can make it and that road is open for us only if we try hard enough. And I think that by adopting that, like, that's like another facet of this kind of being docile or, you know, this the stereotype that you pointed out that we're, what I'm trying to say, I guess is, if I'm not pursuing a higher promotion or a leadership role, you know, it could be because I truly believe I'm not working hard enough, right? Because the myth is that, you know, if I'm working hard enough, I will be rewarded, that's the path in front of me. So just do that harder. And the reality might be like, there is no path, right? Like, just because of institutional racism and how things work, there's actually no path, but I've been kind of like, almost like tricked into thinking that because there's this way forward, I'm just going to keep working at it, and I'm never going to actually reach it. And, you know, however, that plays into like, being docile or like, you know, the difficulties of self advocacy based on like, what your own cultural like heritage might be, or anything like that, that's like this extra layer. Whereas I think if it's made more clear that there's no path, right, if you just get somewhere in somebody's just like, you have no path to promotion, like, nobody's gonna like that, right? Like, that's so much more obvious to fight and say, like, this is wrong, like, we should do something about this. Like, I refuse to participate in the system that is stacked against me, and it's holding me back. And I think giving this kind of like illusion of a path out of it can sometimes be harmful. And I think that's part of like, the reason this model is a model minority myth is like kind of damaging when you kind of internalize it. 

Carmen Lo  21:37  
I definitely hear that. And it's, I think the interesting thing about that, too, is model minority myth is like this positivity blanket, that covers racism. You know, it's, it's really hard to call out someone for having racist beliefs or, you know, not promoting programs that might address these issues, it's a lot harder to see the issue, right? If someone turns to you and says, Hey, Mike, you did a really great job on that. I think that this chart that you did with all this great math was wonderful. And it's really hard to turn around and say, Hey, screw you. That's racist. I actually am terrible at math. So, you know, it's a lot harder to pinpoint that. Because on the surface, the idea of the model minority myth is actually really positive. It's saying, hey, Asians, you're so hardworking, you put your head down, you're so smart. And you've made it good job, congratulations. But it's really important to identify that and actually see what's lying below the surface. I think one of the really important things too, you know, as we talk about the model minority myth, as a stereotype that affects Asian Americans, it's this idea that we're all sort of doing well. But I think it's important to take a step back and break down, that that's actually not true, that we shouldn't take that statement for granted. Partly because if you look at the data itself, it shows that there's quite a lot of economic disparity amongst Asian Americans as a group. So according to the Pew Research Center, in 2018, the income inequality within the Asian group was greater actually than any other racial or ethnic group. So they found that Asians in the 90th percentile of their income distribution had 10.7 times the income of Asians in the bottom 10th percentile. So that number was actually notably greater than the ratio of income inequality amongst blacks, which was 9.8, and even whites and LatinX books, which was 7.8. And not just amongst Asian Americans. But that idea further breaks down if you look within a social group, or an ethnic group, like the Chinese Americans were in 2010, they found that Chinese Americans had higher median income than the general population, yet they had a higher poverty rate than the general population. So this idea that all Asian Americans are doing well, it is false. And second, it really places - it disguises the fact that there are a lot of people who fall into this Asian American bucket that are struggling.

Mike Pham  24:55  
Yeah, it turns out that the model minority myth is like the good vibes only of racism.

Ellen Magallanes  25:01  
To go back to history, you know the term - it's commonly accepted that the term model minority was coined in 1966 by a white person sociologist William Peterson in an article he wrote for The New York Times magazine entitled "Success story, Japanese American style". In that article, Peterson emphasized the family structure and a cultural emphasis on hard work allowed Japanese Americans 20 years after the end of World War Two, and internment camps to overcome the discrimination against their group and achieve a measure of success in the United States. He compared Japanese American perceived achievements but the apparent inability of other "problem minorities", its quote, specifically black Americans to overcome prejudice. So like from from its foundations, this term has been used to weaponize an identity against other disenfranchised or underserved communities. From its very invention, and yet it's couched in such positive language, you're like, oh, but it sounds like it's a good thing. But it's riddled with, like, the more you look at it, the less it bears scrutiny.

Mike Pham  26:08  
Yeah, I think that's like one of the most like, I don't know, nefarious things about this whole model minority myth, right. Because, like you said, I think so much of it from its origins to its current, you know, existence is about, it's about many things, but one of those things is weaponizing, Asians in America or elsewhere, against other minorities or other people who are, you know, facing some type of oppression, right. And I can think of, you know, in the past, however, many years recently, like, handful of years, there was the whole legal case in the US against Harvard about affirmative action and getting rid of affirmative action, because it's, you know, like, reverse racism, blah, blah, blah, all of this stuff. And at the core of the case, you know, was the fact that like, the claim was that like Asian Americans, or Asians were facing some type of discrimination, because of affirmative action. And so it was like, harder for Asians with good scores to get into Harvard, basically. And so we're doing this for the Asians, right? But this was not like an Asian led lawsuit or anything, it was actually led by some white people, I believe. But there's this kind of strategic, you know, tactic of going through Asians, giving us a voice that we did not ask for, or did not voice ourselves and kind of weaponizing us and saying, like, oh, you know, we can use Asians to take down affirmative action, because like, we think they're also suffering. So we're just going to speak for them and like, pit them against other people. And it becomes it becomes very divisive, in a way that's, like, unproductive for everybody. And I think going back to like, what's so nefarious about it is that in many cases, I think it works, right? Like the messaging works. And you do get Asians that get buy in, in that right? And, and because it's couched in this kind of positive, you know, light on the surface, it's so easy to buy into it, if you are relatively new to thinking about these things, or, you know, you don't spend a lot of time kind of really thinking about where they come from. It's easy to be like, oh, yeah, like, that does suck, I can't get into Harvard as easily as like, somebody who is like, I don't know, poorer than me or something. And, and I think that's when it becomes like, just really damaging is when it becomes internalized. And so you basically, essentially have like a white person saying, like, I want to get rid of affirmative action, I'm going to weaponize Asians. And then Asians are like, Yeah, you are right, I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna buy into that as well. And then, then it's just kind of awful.

Carmen Lo  28:43  
And I think that that's a really important point like about the education piece, because it's been in the news so much. And it's important also to break down that myth that, you know, all Asian Americans do really well educationally. And when in fact that there's a lot of educational disparity, and in the same you know, research they found that education levels and incomes vary widely amongst Asians. So in 2015, the share with at least a bachelor's degree amongst adults 25 and older ranged from 72% among Indians, to 9% among the Bhutanese. And you know, a lot of times educational attainment can really be tied to your household income as well. So the medium household income varied from $100,000 amongst Indians to 36,000 among Burmese, poverty rates ranged as high as 35% among the Burmese and 33% among the Bhutanese. So, if you make blanket statements like, hey, Asians are doing great at school and don't need affirmative action policies or they don't need access to, you know, educational help, once they are able to get into college, you're really erasing the experience of a lot of people that still fall under the Asian American. You know, identity.

Ellen Magallanes  30:19  
Yeah, thank you for coming to a podcast armed with so much data Carmen, this is really illuminating. For me as especially

Carmen Lo 30:31  
it turns out, I'm really good with numbers. So.

Ellen Magallanes  30:37  
Hahaha. Um, okay, so I think to summarize it about the model minority myth is rooted in anti black racism, and pointing to so called Asian American success as a way of saying to other people of color that if Asians can make it in America, why can't you? It implies that it's the fault of other groups of color, and their lack of hard work and dedication. And the model minority myth is just another tool of white supremacy that is seeking to divide and conquer people of color. It pulls away focus from where it should be, where, like, where should it be? Could we talk a bit more about? You know, some of the I don't know if this is the right word, but some of the issues that Asian Americans may have, like some of the ways that systemic racism is prevalent in the lives of Asian Americans, I think we mentioned without using the words, bamboo ceiling. Does anyone have any thoughts on that, besides an immediate dislike for the term, which I will let the podcast viewers know, like what's present on both of their faces? As soon as I mentioned the word?

Mike Pham  31:48  
Yeah, I mean, I think Carmen said this earlier that, you know, it is in reference to the phenomenon that, regardless of whether or not you have a lot of Asians working for your company, they're often not in leadership roles, right. And so that there's this barrier to attaining any type of leadership roles. I think it's much more detailed than that in ways that I fully don't understand or I don't understand fully, either. I mean, because it falls back into stereotypes of you know, like, what does it mean to be a leader, especially in America, right? Like, there's a certain type of like, social ability and like, you know, schmooziness, I think, in certain roles and like creativity, and a lot of these traits that are often, you know, not characteristics that are a part of the Asian stereotype, right. And so that starts to work against people who are Asian working somewhere, because no matter how good you are at, like, you know, being in the trenches, doing whatever you're doing well, like, there's an idea, like, oh, but that person can't lead, you know, like, he's, he's not very creative. He can't think big, or, you know, he's, he's not very friendly, you know, or like, or whatever, right. And so these things end up. I mean, that's the effect that ends up kind of being called the bamboo ceiling, I think.

Carmen Lo  33:05  
I think it's interesting to see that in the professional space, there can be a double bind, that Asian Americans experience, you know, on the one hand, you come in, and you're expected to be able to put your head down and be really good with numbers and data and these kind of rote tasks. But let's say you go into a space, it turns out that maybe that's not where your strengths lie. And that for the people who you work with, it's like, it cannot compute that you could be good at anything else. So suddenly, you're seen as not necessarily that that's a skill that you should work on. But oh, you're just terrible. Because they should, you know, you should be good at that. And on the flip side, you know, let's say you are you have these fantastic math skills, or you're great at you know, getting the work done, putting that hard work in. But then there's the stereotype that you're not a good leader, because you should be you know, that you're docile, that you go with the flow, you don't speak up, you're conflict averse. And in America, we try, we tend to value that kind of leadership. We want these aggressive leaders. And it's a lot difficult I think that there is a conversation now that's happening, where companies are trying to value other types and models of leadership. But these stereotypes can really affect the way that Asian Americans can advance. And on the flip side of that, there is why it's a double bind is that let's say, you don't fall into that stereotype. And that you tend to, you know, not be necessarily docile, you speak your mind, you speak up in meetings. And suddenly, you're really rude. It's because you're not expected to act that way. So a lot of times, it feels like you're losing really on both sides. And it's important for the individual to be aware of these things. But it's also so important that we try to push for diversity, equity and inclusion programs to really address these issues of biases, to make people aware of them. And to really expand the model for what we can see as leaders in the professional space.

Ellen Magallanes  36:02  
Yes, like that resonates so strongly, you know, you know what this reminds me of? The book Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. And my feelings of like, this made me panic, as I read the book, and I was like, oh, I should just lean in harder. What if, like, what if? What if I'm not like an aggressive bullish kind of, you know, leader, you know? What if I like to be friendly, and my approach is more empathetic? Can I how do I rise to leadership? How do I join the men's club? Well, I think the answer is we need to, we need to change the men's club, let's not put the onus on us to contort ourselves in the way that we work. So that we can succeed in a man's world, like the man's world is not the world that we should live in, you know, and I think that's, I mean, I'm not gonna mention any names, but like working at the legal team at the Wikimedia Foundation has, like, revolutionized what I think about law. Because my managers, the people in leadership, they're incredible. They bring their selves to work, they model different types of leadership, it gives me hope that there's room for me to grow in an organization like this, where people at the top are different. And I've worked in law firms before in Australia, and there was a certain type that succeeded, and they were not pleasant to work with.

Carmen Lo  37:21  
I definitely hear that. And there's a lot to, you know, it is emotionally and personally draining, to have to go to work into every day and feel like you can't be your authentic self. I can't tell you how long I tried to pretend to like golf. And I hate it. I hate golf. I never - no - I don't want to do that. And you know what, I'm at a point where I can I feel comfortable saying that and I can just be like, I'm never going golfing again, I'm not gonna like it. And that it is easier to for me to try and change. It's more systemic racism against Asian Americans than it is to go golfing. That's that's where I'm at right now.

Ellen Magallanes  38:03  
I was also thinking like, what about the intergenerational impact of immigration? Do you know that a majority of Asian American adults in the United States are foreign born like 78%? How do you think the nature of immigration affects first second, third generation immigrants, the bias and barriers entrenched or improved over time? I think this is particularly interesting really, we're all kind of at our different stages of that immigration journey. And Carmen, I know you have children so there's even another generation after you, you can think about these things for.

Mike Pham  38:43  
Yeah, I feel like it's, you know, it's interesting for me, when I see my family who came over, like, once again, a lot of, you know, refugees, a lot of immigrants, and a lot of them came over with very little so they kind of fit a lot of the patterns of the model minority. And I think that kind of enables them to want to buy in, like I was saying earlier, right? Like, you know, I, I've heard people my family say things about, like, weird things about immigration, right, and being like, oh, but you know, you got to keep some people out. Like, you're immigrants, like, why why would you be saying this? Right, and, and then hearing like, oh, but, you know, we're the good kind of immigrants, or whatever. I was like, I don't even know what that means. First of all, right. And like, you know, like, if you're talking about education, it's not like all my aunts, uncles have like college education. You know, I was like, you know, I have an uncle you know, in Louisiana, like, that has a nail salon. Right. And like, is that a good type of immigrant and what's a bad type of American like, it's just so strange, right? And I think a lot of this was because I love my uncle, by the way, so no shade towards towards him at all. But I think, you know, I still see like, here's this myth, and it becomes this kind of like weird escape route. And it's a way of like relieving the pressures of immigration and assimilation, because it's positive in a way. And it gives you the illusion of having a way of like justifying your existence in a way that is recognized by like, the white people around you, right? And it's kind of like, oh, well, if I play into the kind of this safe, you know, characteristics and persona and identity, then I'm okay to be here, right? Like, I fit into the role that like, that has been made for me. And so I belong here, and people aren't going to necessarily send me away or question why I'm here. And if I do anything that kind of breaks out of that a little bit, then it's a problem, right? People are gonna start saying, like, you know, why are you here? Like, what are you doing here? Like, you're, you're doing it all wrong, you're, you're breaking all the rules, you're, you're, you know, not supposed to be doing that. And I know, for myself, you know, like, I, every teenager fought with my parents about all sorts of dumb stuff. And like, and I think it took me a long time to realize that, like, you know, for my parents, and especially my dad, you know, like, coming over, in these situations, like, assimilation is like, kind of a part of survival, right. And like, really fitting that mould is a way of like, becoming successful and surviving in this country, and like, giving me an opportunity to, like, be a shitty teenager and be like, I'm gonna go listen to punk rock and dye my hair, right, like, and so for me growing up here was very much like, I don't want to be assimilated, that's like such an American thing to be like, you know, I need to, like, do my own thing, or whatever. And that was like, in such conflict, because for me, I didn't have that same motivation of like, assimilation of survival. And it was easier for me to kind of question things like the model minority myth or question like, What is my role of an identity of being Asian in America actually mean? Because I didn't depend on that to like, justify, like, why I might be in this country, or like, you know, the things that I'm doing to survive in the same ways.

Carmen Lo  41:56  
I think what you said, Mike is really interesting, because there is a lot to when you are an immigrant coming to this country, and then you kind of buy into these things, like you need to work hard. And, you know, my parents worked really hard, and was able to really provide, and there is an aspect of survival. And that's very different. I mean, I am an immigrant myself, but I came over when I was three. So I feel very assimilated, I guess, into this western paradigm. You know, I was like a international studies political science major in undergrad. So you're learning about all these things like democracy and freedom. And those are the things that you hold dear. But really, it's it's very culturally different than the values that my parents had. So it's recognizing that too. And I remember, I don't have any answer for this. But I remember definitely having this identity crisis where I felt like, you know, I go home. And it's very different than what I have to be or say, or feel when I go to school. And sometimes I still feel that way. And so I think that, you know, I have two young kids, and I think about it a lot. They are mixed race kids growing up in I live in a predominantly white neighborhood. And I have to think a lot about are they going to have those same feelings of this dichotomy of not feeling like they belong in this predominant culture. And that's really painful for me. So I think about ways that I can create a world where they never have to question that.

Ellen Magallanes  43:44  
Oh, that tugs at the heartstrings, Carmen, I want to build a world for your children too I want them to belong. Like I think I think as opposed to both of you, I'm actually like secondary, like I was born entirely and just like I would skip the fact I'm American, just translate my Australian experiences over - I was born in Australia. And yet, for some reason, I felt so much the striving, I think, perhaps because my parents were relatively young when they had me, and I was the eldest. So I remember, like, I remember not having like the same treats that my classmates could have, because we were poor. I remember commuting twice as far as my classmates, because we lived in a neighborhood that was cheaper. I remember not being allowed out because they were like, you know, your neighborhood. Our neighborhood is sketchy. My dad was a cop on top of that, so he was like, you know, this neighborhood is sketchy. You're not catching the train after dark, and how much that like limited me. And I remember, like that drive, to succeed, to escape, to thrive, like, no one pushed me at school, but me. Like my parents didn't even know what subjects I was studying. And I know that that was not typical of I like you know, Asian, Asian parenting Tiger parents and whatnot. It was it was entirely on me to push myself to leave. And I threw myself because I, I believed that it was hard. Like if I worked hard, I could escape. So I guess like that that mentality like existed within me even, even in Australia, even as a young child. And now I'm here in the US, I have fully left the nest. And yeah, my parents are like, so like, especially compared to my husband's parents, who are white Australian, like, his mom was heartbroken when we left - they're always asking when we're coming back. My parents were like, we're gonna go visit you just like, they were just not fussed at all. And I was like, do my parents not love me, like my parents love him? And then I thought about their experiences. And I realized, they identify very strongly with going into another country to start a better life. Like, this is just the way things are done. They know that, you know, they'll see me and like, and I'm moving now at a time, where there's technology, like my parents have only been back to the Philippines twice in my, in my lifetime, you know, like they, it's gone, like their new their new life is here. And another point, like, I think Mike mentioned, assimilation, and how my parents definitely wanted to assimilate. And they wanted that for me, too. And they didn't teach me Tagalog because they wanted English to be my first language. And so my whole life I felt like, like, I'm like, am I even Filipino? Like, am I am I just Australian, you know, like, how, you know, you look a certain way. But you talk a certain way, you act a certain way. Like, what what even am I? And I guess I was having these like identity crises even though my like my genetically, it's quite like my heritage is Filipino quite clearly. And I was born in Australia. And yet, I fit in like neither of those worlds. And actually, I found moving to the Bay Area. No one questions me. I tell them I'm Australian. I speak with this accent. No one's like, but what, what are you? And maybe that's because I meet people now in professional settings. People who are like switched on, maybe it's because it's the Bay Area. And they're just not like, they just know better now. But that was not my experience in Australia growing up, like you don't know how many times I had, like, where are you? Really, especially when I was talking on the phone, they can hear an American twang, which comes from my Filipino parents who learn American English teaching me English. In fact, if they have let school teach me English, I probably would sound less American. So then all through my Australian life, I get, like, "where are you really from?" even over the phone because they can tell I sound different. Yeah.

Carmen Lo  47:43  
I think that every Asian American should just have this fund, where every time they got the question of where are you from, from? You know, there's like 20 bucks that just shows up in it. And it's like a form of reparations or something. I think that would only be fair.

Mike Pham  48:05  
Yeah, I am all for this. I think it just reminded me, maybe a tangent. I was with some friends in Chicago once and I lived there. And we were just hopping on the train. And yeah, sure enough, somebody asked me the question, he like, Oh, where are you from? Like, where are you really from? And I think every every, you know, Asian American or Asian deals with this, like, thought process of like, you know, do I want to get into it? Or do I just answer the question and get this stupid thing over with and like, kind of concede, you know, like, and so I kind of like was like, I'm with my friends, whatever. I'm just gonna be like, sure. My parents are Vietnamese. And that's what I said, That guy. For whatever reason. It was just like, oh, yeah, you know, he's a veteran. He's like, Oh, yeah, I was in Nam. And I was just like, so annoyed at the time. I was just like, yes, so was my family. They were also in Vietnam during the war. I'm not sure if you want to have this conversation right now. And that was pretty much the end of the conversation.

Carmen Lo  49:10  
I love that. And it's also you're just stuck in this terrible situation or like, then do I go into a whole thing about how I feel like that's a pretty racist statement, or just let it go. I mean, and it's also like, emotionally taxing to have to bring it up with someone, especially when you're with your friends, you just want to go out and have fun. I just I feel like there's been so many times to when you're just trying to, I think one time, it also happened on a train. I was sitting on a train and I was like, had my headphones in and I was clearly reading a book. I didn't want to talk to anyone and some guys come sit down, sits next to me and he's like, Hey, how you doing? You know, I really love sake.

Mike Pham  49:47  
Yeah, well and like I think this is like going back to this idea of like, this is like a weird identity like fostered on us. You know what I mean? Like, and it's like Asian-ness seen through the lens of whiteness, right? Like, that's kind of what we're getting at here. It's like, you know, it's kind of like, what is Vietnamese or Vietnam mean, in America? One thing's the Vietnam War. And that's how everybody talks about Vietnam, right? Like, it's through that lens that I am Vietnamese, not through whatever else it could possibly mean. Right? And so it's kind of once again, like, did I choose this identity? You know, like, maybe to some degree, is it like something that was pushed on me? Absolutely. And, and for sure, that's like a huge part of it. And I think trying to navigate that space of being like, Well, I definitely want to, like, you know, understand, recognize my heritage and like, find my place and all of that, while at the same time, people are like yelling at me, like if I like sake or something, right. Like, it's like such a kind of disorienting set of events.

Carmen Lo  50:54  
Yeah, exactly. And I think that when people push these stereotypes onto you, it's, it's a way of sort of erasing who you are, right? Your race's- every individual's unique identities and their backgrounds. And that your erasure can feel really dehumanizing. And has has really, you know, harmful and dangerous consequences, like we're seeing with the huge uptake in crimes, violent crimes against Asian Americans. And how, you know, when people buy into this idea of a model, minority myth, Asians are doing just fine. You can't see these as hate crimes. It's like the Atlanta shooting, and the sheriff just coming out and saying, Hey, that guy was having a really bad day. As opposed to that it was a racially motivated killing. So, I mean, there are definitely really terrible consequences to something that seemingly doesn't seem like a lot, right. Asians are good at math. But if you really look at this, beneath the surface of that, it's, it's, it's just dehumanizing.

Mike Pham  52:08  
Yeah, and I think it's also, you know, this weapon used against Asians to say, like, Hey, don't complain, you got it so good, right? Like, your, your problems aren't real. Like, look at the numbers, you guys are doing great. You're all rich, you're all smart. You know, like, you know, why are you complaining? And I think the more that we fall into these stereotypes and end up adopting that frame of thinking, the more that you kind of start picking up that a little bit, right, like, you know, because like, even in tech, right, we've talked about, like, the relative overrepresentation of white people and Asian people in tech. And so sometimes I'm kind of like, Oh, should I complain, though, you know, like, and like, as soon as I think about it, I'm like, of course, these problems are real, but there's like this knee jerk reaction of like, oh, but like, I guess our numbers are pretty good. You know, like, am I, you know, what am I talking about? And it's like this weird gaslighting effect, right? And I think the stereotype is kind of like, basically shut up. You guys are doing great, you know, like, and that's so harmful and disingenuous.

Carmen Lo 53:10  
Exactly, and it definitely goes to the erasure point, and its silencing. But you know, you should raise hell, every time that something like that like that thought goes through your brain, like, you should just be like, No, you know what, dammit, I'm gonna raise hell.

Ellen Magallanes  53:24  
I've like literally been told when I'm interviewing or writing emails, like, like, what would a white man say? How's it different to what I'm saying? Is there anything I want to borrow from like the white man persona? And I hate that I have to ask myself that, you know, and live in a world where a white man will get further or like acting like a white man will perhaps get me further, but

Mike Pham 53:50  
you just have to sprinkle in a lot of golf metaphors, I think.

Carmen Lo  53:56  
So I, my husband and I do joke that we need to raise our children with the unearned confidence of a white man.

Ellen Magallanes  54:04  
Joke, but like, it will get them further. Which is the worst. I think what like okay, we've said some really cool words. I really like Mike's nefarious word. I'm gonna also throw in the word insidious. I feel like the model minority myth is insidious and its impact on us. And I guess, as we bring this podcast to a close, I want to ask, what next? What can what can we do in our in our daily or professional lives to build the kind of world where Carmen's children will feel accepted and happy.

Carmen Lo 54:45  
So I think my key takeaways and something that I always try to stay focused on is just the awareness piece. Because like Mike was saying earlier, there is so much silencing and erasing of the harms that Asian Americans can feel in this country. And so it's so important that it's recognized, it's pointed out how it presents itself, identifying it, and making sure that people are aware. There's also a lot to be said about being open to, to growth to inner growth, and recognizing that, you know, we ourselves can internalize these racist thoughts. And also for people who might be on the receiving end of getting called out - to be open about that, and not just kind of close up, but to really hear that, because it does come from somewhere, and to be and to recognize and really strive to do better. You know, when when I think that we all mess up, we all do things or say things that can be harmful or, or might be racist, even. And it's just important to keep our mind on well, how can we always do better? And it's also that, you know, we talk about the idea of being in a coalition. It's keeping our focus on this idea that there is a common harm of white supremacy and systemic and institutionalized racism, and what can we do as individuals to work with others, and particularly other communities of color to be aware of the symptoms of racism that affect them? And really, that, you know, we're not, we can't be liberated from this until we are all liberated from it.

Mike Pham  56:45  
Yeah, I just wanted to echo that, like, what you were just saying it, you know, it almost seems contradictory in a way to say like, oh, the best thing we can do for ourselves, is to not help ourselves in a way. But I think that like, given the context that we were talking about that, like, this Asian model minority myth is so often used to weaponize us against others, right, like, that is taking a really strong stand and saying, No, we do not sit on the side of white supremacy, we're not like, quietly going along with these stereotypes that are using us as a weapon against others. And, you know, like, I think when you think about, like, the civil rights movements back in, like the 70s, in the US, right, you know, you you have like Asians standing with Black Panthers. And, you know, Muhammad Ali famously saying, he's not going to Vietnam to like, fight people that never did anything, right. Like, this is all examples of like, yeah, once again, white supremacy trying to divide everybody else. And when white supremacy is the problem at the core of it, right. And so, you know, like, not losing that focus, like you said, Carmen, I think is so important. And, you know, when we help when we help others that are, you know, also oppressed under white supremacy, then we're also helping ourselves. And, you know, I think it's, it's easy to fall into the trap of the model minority myth and say, like, we do have it alright, like, like, let's not make a big fuss, because like, we're doing okay, like, let's not, like jeopardize what we have. And what it turns out is, you know, like, we don't, we only have what everybody else has in this situation, right? And so, you know, you know, we can't just kind of just sit quietly along and let ourselves be weaponized against others.

Ellen Magallanes 58:26  
I yeah, I love what both of you said, I think it's incumbent on us to be allies for our causes. It's, yeah, so important to recognize, recognize the bigger picture. And, you know, like, not fall for the trap that pits, you know, underserved groups against each other, because that's not that's not where the fight is, you know, and we're not, it's like, not actually a zero sum game, you know, we can actually help each other like, there's no, there's no success, born on the, like, expense of other people, like, not succeeding, like there is there's - we can lift them up. And as we prioritize them, we can lift ourselves up too not like, being like we're in competition to the, the to be on the top of the pyramid, you know. And that, even though that is how we will often be pit against against each other. And one other thing I wanted to mention is actually an idea that Mike mentioned a while ago, not in this podcast, but during one of our earlier chats. Mike, you mentioned the idea of asking in interviews when you're interviewing for places you you ask them, Where do you see diversity in your firm or organization? What is your goal? Can you can you tell me more about like how I would ask that question?

Mike Pham  59:57  
Sure. I think there's a lot of variation. then you can, you know, customize them, you know, however you think is important for the role, or the company that you're with my kind of go to, like, basic version is usually pretty open ended, you know, I'll always ask in an interview something along the lines of like, you know, how has diversity on your team or at your workplace, you know, affected you or your team in the past? Or, and or how would you like to see it in the future? Right. And there's a lot of rooms for this to go. And I often feel like there's not really a right answer, necessarily, but there's probably a lot of wrong answers. And so, you know, it's just kind of, it's to help someone, I'm not looking, I'm not fishing for a certain answer. But I think it's very clear, if people have thought about these issues before, if they've given it some thought, and if somebody is, like, clearly like, oh, wow, like, I've never even given this some thought, then, you know, that's, that's an important thing to know, during an interview process about the candidate. And, you know, you'll have to factor that in whatever else is relevant for that role. And I think the other goal I have for always including this both internal to the organization, and externally is I think it kets candidates and the company I'm interviewing for no, like, you know, like, this is this should be normal, in some sense, right? Like, it's not normal for people to not think about this, or it shouldn't be normal for people to like, get so far without ever thinking about these questions. And, you know, if I go into an interview, like, somebody is going to ask me how I deal with like, I don't know, communication, or like, making mistakes, and like, these are just so standard that we expect in interviews, and and I think it should also just be standard to know, like, you know, have you thought about issues of like, diversity in your workplace, or inclusion, or any of these things like, like, let's normalize these things, you know, like, I don't, I don't want this to be a surprise for candidates that hear this question. Like they, they should not be coming into interviews, or like, you know, five years into a career and be like, Oh, wow, like, never had to think about this before.

Carmen Lo  1:02:06  
And I do have to say, I think that that advice about, you know, holding your organizations and your companies to account for these diversity metrics, trying to ask about, what do your numbers look like? Where do you see problems? And how are we going to diversify our leadership and the C suite? How are we you know, it's not just, they're putting out statements saying that we care, we care, we care about underrepresented communities, but what are they actually doing? What are the actions that they're taking to change it? And I think that that's really important. And it's also a type of pressure that can come not just from the Asian American community, but really from everyone. That this should be an issue and a matter that everyone cares about, no matter what you look like, and no matter what your background is, because it does affect everyone.

Ellen Magallanes  1:03:07  
I love that so much. And I think like leaving or ending this podcast on that note is a reminder that like we can enact change, like we as the talent coming in as the next phase of leaders like we can, we can prioritize, we can make this happen. We are armed with information. And there's plenty online if this podcast is but a start, like scratching at the surface. And I guess I'm optimistic for the trajectory is trending upwards. So yeah, I want to thank you both so much for your time, it has been a wonderful discussion. I hope the listeners have enjoyed hanging out with Carmen and Mike also, I'll let you both say any concluding thoughts if you would like before we close,

Mike Pham  1:03:52  
I just want to say thanks for sending all this up. And you know, like, it's just been fun chatting with you both. I don't think I've had and Carmen, I just met you pretty recently, Ellen, we haven't talked that much at work. And so this is like awesome to not just meet new people, but talk about things that are pretty important to all of us. And you know, I was joking before this podcast that I'm not very good at uplifting, you know, final notes, Ellen, but I think you did a good job. I'm feeling I'm feeling uplifted. So thank you.

Carmen Lo 1:04:20  
Thank you so much for this opportunity, Ellen. It's been really great to chat and, and to bring these issues to light. And we should go golfing sometime when y'all are free 

Mike Pham 1:04:25  
Only mini golf. Mini golf is okay.

Ellen Magallanes 1:04:30  
Hahahaha

Reema Moussa  1:04:36  
Thanks for listening to this episode of The Tech Policy Grind podcast by the Internet Law and Policy Foundry. Be sure to check out the Foundry on LinkedIn and Twitter. If you enjoyed this episode, leave us a review and give us a five star rating. It really helps out the show. If you're interested in supporting the show, reach out to us at foundrypodcast@ILPfoundry.us You can find our email in the show notes as well. The tech policy grind podcast comes out every other Thursday. See you next time!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai