Reema Moussa  0:01  
From the internet law and policy foundry, this is the tech policy grind podcast. Every two weeks, we'll discuss recent developments and exciting topics in the technology and internet law and policy space. I'm Reema Moussa, and I'm a member of the fourth cohort of foundry fellows. The Foundry is a collaborative organization for internet law and policy professionals who are passionate about disruptive innovation.

This week Foundry fellow Emine Ozge Yildirim chatted with Catherine Stihler, CEO of Creative Commons and former EU parliament member representing Scotland and the Labour Party. Catherine was awarded an OBE by Her Majesty the Queen in recognition of her services to politics in 2019. Emine is an active member of the Creative Commons copyright platform and holds an LLM degree from Georgetown University Law Center. She's also a scholar analyzing the intersections of digitization, political speech and human rights as she writes her PhD dissertation at KU Leuven Center for IT and IP law.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  1:22  
Hello, Catherine, thank you so much for joining us joining us for this week's episode of The Tech policy grind podcast. Thanks, Emine. Thank you, we are excited to discuss Creative Commons often licenses copyleft, and all things related to open space. It's such an honor to have you here today. And this episode is also a special one for me, as I've been an active member of Creative Commons Community for a while now. Without further ado, I would like to dive in. Let's begin with a personal question. If I'm not mistaken, you were a member of the European Parliament for Scotland for 20 year. Later, you served as the chief executive officer for the Open Knowledge Foundation. Now you're the Chief Executive Officer of Creative Commons. I'm wondering after years of a stellar political career, what drew you to open space?

Catherine Stihler OBE  2:17  
So, thank you Emine for inviting me on your podcast. And it's great to be with you this morning. My time and what drew me to open. I think there's several things really, firstly, you know, my background, my parents were teachers, my grandmother was, you know, had to leave school when she was 13-14. To, to work because education, then when somebody in your family passed away, you know, you were, you had to work and give up education. So education, for me has always been an exceedingly important topic, both in my home life and, and so access to education, access to learning access to knowledge has always been there. Maybe it wasn't specified as, as open then. But it was always in and around being, you know, when I grew up, and then, you know, fast forward to my career in the European Parliament, and it was the year where I had the responsibility on article what was Article 13? Now Article 17. In the in, in, in the copyright work that we were doing, and that's how I got into copyright, because I could see more generally, how do you get that balance between making sure that you have a fair system that's rewarding those who are creating, but also making sure that you're also improving access to knowledge, access to culture. I am, I launched interestingly, a campaign and it was called an Open Knowledge campaign in the European Parliament do with ebook access, but that was 10 years ago. That's quite extraordinary that we're still talking about those issues, you know, that we're talking about 10 years ago, they're still not resolved and showing why it's so important. The organizations like Creative Commons,Internet Archive, Wikimedia, you know, that these organizations exists to ensure that we always have in, in, in a discourse in a debate, the importance of access to knowledge and culture by the public domain is so important, and what we can do together to ensure that that public domain and that public interest is supported, protected, loved, cared for, and, and really, I think that, you know, the way things have panned out in terms of my own personal career is, I'm so proud and honored to be running an organization like Creative Commons, which, you know that that kind of DNA of Creative Commons to open up knowledge and culture for everyone everywhere to ensure that public domain that Commons is enriched is such a, an honor and privilege. And I'm grateful every day to to be part of this organization, this movement, this network, this community, which is global, which you're part of Emine, which is wonderful. The next generation of people who are involved to make sure, that there are Commons is, is there for everyone in perpetuity.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  5:33  
Now, that's amazing. You mentioned Creative Commons, internet archive, and Wikimedia together. But I feel like despite having a lot of volunteers in almost every country and having many local chapters, especially CC and Wikimedia, there is still some misunderstanding or lack of knowledge regarding what Creative Commons is doing as an organization, how CC licenses work or why they matter. So if you were to explain simple terms, to people who actually have no idea about it, how would you address these questions?

Catherine Stihler OBE  6:07  
So those are really putting questions in me. And I think, if we started to deal with whatever you're partially created by the CC match, if I might see see life size, you know, what's important to CC licenses? I mean, I think we, we all, we all live in a world where copyright dominates may not put a name on it. But actually, we live in a world where copyright dominates a system originally designed to encourage and reward creators. Now, just as often enriches large corporations, and creators often don't see big benefits from their works having to sign them away to publishers and distributors. And so knowledge and culture remain, an even though we get things that have been opened up, much of knowledge and culture still remains locked up. And now that we can connect our global digital network, we should have easier access to more of the world's information instead, that are often paywalls. And friction everywhere. So Creative Commons, as you know, exists to support a different model for sharing knowledge and culture, to provide the infrastructure. That's the legal tools, the policy, the education, the training. And we have a worldwide community that empowers people to own their work, but also to share it. And I think that's, that's, you know, fundamentally, where the difference lays. And so how does CC licenses work? Well, we know the license is really very simple. When you work is published. And most countries, as you know, the traditional model was that they were by default, and all rights reserved model of copyright, CC licenses flip that copyright on its head. And when you publish a new work, you still hold the copyright. But by also applying a CC license, you can make a clear statement about other people can use your work to remove friction and ambiguity, and clear the way for your work to inspire and form and empower others. And what often thinks that the case like of an individual author, and there are great examples where, you know, solo creators have openly licenses or works to the you know, their works to their own or the world's benefit. But maybe even more powerful examples are when people work together to create knowledge and culture together and share that collectively, we're open, you know, openly, I can generate even greater benefits. So when you think of think about Wikipedia, we just talked about that. I mean, that was comprehensive, current and accurate encyclopedia ever created, entirely powered by Creative Commons licenses. That's something that's like, think about that. It's a wonderful, wonderful example of the power of Creative Commons. And what's more, because Wikipedia is openly licensed countless other works, build on it to do other powerful things. So we think about scientific research, instead of being locked up in slow moving journal, publishing processes, research outcomes, and raw data can now be released immediately to the world with open licenses, ready to inform other scientists and ready to be evaluated and verified, not just by one or two peer reviewers, but by entire disciplines. So having an immediate impact, and that's, again, another area where and then, you know, think about cultural heritage, which you know, many that we've got a strong program on it, Creative Commons, you know, our words, or songs or images or crafts, or, you know, once hidden away in museums and archives, it's all now available almost anywhere, anytime, if, if, if those are institutions choose to, to open up and so we have tools to help open up those museums and archives. And the Internet brings this all to us, but open licenses empowers us to actually engage with it, to hear it, to see it to speak, to sing and to make new works inspired by those that came before because we know that that that Knowledge is built on other knowledge. And Creative Commons is helping us to as a society to be able to build on that knowledge to help solve pressing problems that we're facing together. I hope that answers your questions. I mean, it's, it's a really important one. And I've really enjoyed thinking a little bit about about.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  10:21  
Yeah, but it's so inspiring. Thank you. And I think that people have been sharing knowledge, because of Creative Commons for 20 years now, because you're celebrating your 20th year anniversary. Yes, since it's like since its initial establishment by Lawrence Lessig, Hal Abelson, and Eric elder in 2001. And I'm wondering, since its inception in the early days of the Internet, how has the organization evolved in this 2021 years? Oh,

Catherine Stihler OBE  10:53  
gosh, that me it's in 20 years is a marking point, and we're so proud of for Creative Commons has achieved in those 20 years of fundamentally changing a copyright system. It Firstly, it was seemed to be very much a US project. And then what created a, you know, a global community created around it because copyright wasn't just a US problem, it was a global problem that needed a solution. And so the elegant solution of our licenses was something, you know, which has changed copyright from an all rights reserved system, to a some rights reserved for those empowering those who want to do, so I mean, people I think, don't realize how small Creative Commons is, I think that's, it's a very small team, with a huge worldwide impact. And as you know, critical mass was first working to make an intervention in copyright, as I've just described, and instead has ended up building almost as an alternative world, a global system, where, you know, we can build and connect people to share knowledge, share culture, and that open sharing has been transformative. And Creative Commons, I think has evolved, you know, not just the case for open sharing. But but how that happens is skill, just as I've described, that it started about a year in the US, and then has gone to be this global phenomenon. And, you know, and so, we are now focused on making sure necessary infrastructure for open sharing evolves, and spreads to handle the continually changing landscape of technologies and practices, as you're aware of, as you're, you know, a doctoral student looking at these issues. And we're focused on collaborating with our community all over the world, to bring new people into this world of openness to so I think that, you know, we we are very reflective at that 20 year anniversary moment, is both a celebration, but it's also an opportunity not to rest on our laurels, but also to think about the next 20 years, because the next 20 years is very different from the past 20 years. And so how do we make sure that our organization is not just addressing some of the key issues that we have faced around the barriers to shileding that copyright is introduced, but also thinking about those other barriers to open sharing, which we also encounter too.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  13:43  
Yeah, that was also actually part of my next question. Oh, really? No worries. Because I mean, since I also had the chance to work with you, in the copyright platform's working group on digital sharing spaces. I know that you're interested in many issues, people usually do not immediately associate with copyright or licenses, you know, such as data protection. Yeah, disinformation, misinformation, AI, so forth. So what direction see is moving forward under your leadership, what is the agenda for the next few years or 20 years?

Catherine Stihler OBE  14:21  
Well, actually no. Emine we have a strategy that we worked collectively together. And the theme that was really teased out of that was better sharing, and how we can do things better in the next color strategies for five years. But, but I mean, the world is not standing still. And there are new challenges, new opportunities, and the new huge problems that we have to solve and, you know, whether that's the climate crisis, whether it's the pandemic, all of these are arising. And, you know, what we're seeing is to have real lasting impact, Creative Commons cannot just, you know, you know, see we published our license is just our hands and, you know, dust our hands off and call it a day that the world of propriety publishing doesn't sleep either. And to ensure that alternative world a better sharing is, is supported and enabled, we've been building communities to grow and become more powerful. And we need to actively engage with new technologies, new policies, new practices, and new communities. I'm really proud that we are working on our climate campaign, which is just starting. And I think that's got the potential when we look at the climate crisis about why so much information research detail is is not in a shareable isn't being shared isn't being enabled, and for, we can do to help work on that problem, to enable better sharing of that information that research that data to help solve one of humanity's pressing problems, and engage with a new community such as one which maybe has not in the past, looked at our community. But actually, here's the tools that can help enable that information, that knowledge to be shared, to solve one of our huge pressing problems. And just use that as a small example. Where I think our impact, and by working together, we can, again, show the value, and the necessity of what Creative Commons is all about to help us all. So I'm really excited about our climate work. And, you know, you know, we've also got our open culture program as well, which is breaking down barriers to that sharing of knowledge in the in the kind of cultural heritage sector. So we are very fortunate to have at the moment, a number of programmatic actions that we're taking, to evidence practically about the value that we have, because we can talk about the abstract, but actually, the practical when, when people have access, can share can build on can co create is, is something which we're enabling. And I'm deeply proud of that work that's going on across our world as we speak.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  17:37  
Yeah, since you mentioned better sharing, as the vision for the next years, I would like to ask you, as you're really well, very well aware of many policy and legislative initiatives to regulate digital sharing spaces, and to modernize copyright regimes are coming from different regions around the world, and perhaps, with the influence of the European Union's ambitious agenda on having a prominent place in the digital world. So how many think this initiatives have an impact on these licenses, public domain, and better sharing online?

Catherine Stihler OBE  18:13  
So I mean, part part of our focus at Creative Commons going forward is to really stay engaged, where policies changing, not just in the US or in Europe, but worldwide. And we have to engage continually, because our license is our living works that need to be stewarded to be relevant, and because our voice and your voice needs to be part of, of new policy, and so, one of Creative Commons' most essential endeavors is to educate people, not just, you know, policymakers and politicians, but but everyone about the advantages of the open path that that we see, as as, as as as one that is in the public interests, promoting the public domain and supporting the Commons. So when we think about the opposite, the closed, proprietary mindset is, you know, it's not resting passively. We see the power of that. Those, the advocate for the proprietary, and for closed systems, and so they're, they they're actively engaged to shape the future to their advantage. And without the constant vigilance and engagement of the Creative Commons community, and and our network and our advocates. You know, the great gains we've already made, could potentially be lost if we are not there talking about the importance of open and better sharing. And So I think that even after 20 years of the successes that we have gained, we, as I say, do not let rest on our laurels, that we are important voices to be heard, in order that the public interest is served against sometimes very much those who do not have the public interest as their main endeavor and priority. And I think coming from my previous background as a policymaker for 20 years, there's also, I think, for the next 20 years for the open movement, and that's something for you. We're being involved in a very nice and better internet campaign about how those of us that share this public interest that share the importance of public interest technology, and we see a raft of regulation that's coming, Bill has come is is is about to be implemented, particularly in the EU level, where public interest technology, human interest, some people call it human interest technology is seemed to be a real alternative to those interests of big tech. And I think that there's something there for Creative Commons to play in terms of how how our public interest technology is being applied, how we are serving our community for the future, and how we're opening up more culture, more knowledge to solve these pressing problems that we're all facing together globally. And you know, this particular moment. And the relevance of Creative Commons and the importance of public interest technology is one where I think both the political and civic society are really at one with what we want to do, but it's how you do it. And, and that's where I think we're going to see the challenges in the next 5-10-20 years, because we want to shape a society. That's one we're, we understand what is happening with algorithms, that we are holding decision making to account and this is what you the work, you've been doing Emine platform liability when we've got obtuse algorithms making decisions on content that's actually illegal, and then not being allowed to be heard online, because an algorithm decides that this is not to be and yet there's no accountability, no responsibility, you know, to ensure that we that we have the ability of you know, this is this were free speech argument, but it's, you know, often hear that phrase, what is illegal off on offline should be illegal online? Well, the same applies, what is legal, offline should be legal online, when it comes to free speech. This is really important that we have the ability to be able to not

not have an algorithm determining whether it's a parody or comedy that we can tell the difference between what is legal what you know, it's just the world that we're existing in is one where there are so many challenges, where Creative Commons can play a part in talking about those issues. And the fantastic work you've done on platform liabilities been a real testament to that collective working together globally. In your working group that you've seen that.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  23:46  
Oh, thank you. Well, since you mentioned, removing lawful content, especially with algorithms, I'm wondering, as a former policymaker, do you think that policymakers, some of them, not all of them, of course, might still have a knowledge gap? Or do you think it's more of a neglectful approach regarding the open space when they are actually drafting some legislation like the CDSM Directive of article 17 and other like proposals, regulations coming up?

Catherine Stihler OBE  24:20  
I think, and I appreciate, sometimes it's easy to see all policymakers are like this. Well, I wouldn't be sitting talking to you. If we were all. That there's something and it pleased to the fact there is still a role to give a different point of view about public interest technology and about against proprietary interests. I think for some policymakers in this space is an ever evolving ever changing and it's our responsibility. I believe collectively as okay as an Open movement to be able to work more closely together to put across our arguments. And we need to be there putting across our arguments. And if we're not there, we are not heard. And something was quite striking to me in the copyright debates from 2014, to when I left the parliament in 2019, was that civil society's voice, and other, there were some really good organizations really working hard to put that voice across it, you know, it was very hard to do that when you're up against a huge lobby with huge resources. And I'd worked earlier in my political career against the tobacco industry. And I, you know, and that was in we, we got a lot of success in changing the law around and around tobacco, and it's used and the regulation on that, but I've never seen anything like that, I thought that was quite a hard lobby. When you come into this, you know, rights holders lobby. It's quite something when you are at the other side of that, and having to deal with that. And the tactics of that were something also that I'm having firsthand experience of those tactics. It's, it's quite, it was quite revealing that the, in certainly in those debates, there was, there was, there was either this perspective or that perspective, there was very little. And we know that's there's complexity within all of this space of how we regulate, how we future proof. So on policymakers, I think that there's our job of work, working together, across this broad open movement to put across our perspectives, is so important that we work collectively together, because that is what those who do not share our position do. And and they are very effective at getting their message across. And we have to be as effective of getting our message across as well. And there are many policymakers who are very open to our arguments about the public interest about how we grow the commons, the importance of access to knowledge and culture, that that shared our views. And we have to almost work with them. And perhaps you know, that because we're a global organization, there are people in all, policymakers in many different countries that really should be more connected. When, when when having and sharing and knowing that, that the public interest is best served, when we can share information to be able to solve our pressing problems, whether it's climate change, whether that will be faced with a pandemic, whether it's about, you know, open education, whatever the issue may be, we have a role to play in sharing, why these things are important, the new knowledge is built alone, the power of it, of what we can do online to be able to solve some of our pressing problems. And we have to be able to articulate that work together and promote that across not just in our own countries, but globally about why that matters. And sometimes Emine, if you look at this, this the regulation that's coming see from from the EU, and, you know, many other countries and and you look at it and you think we need global rules on some of these issues. And the challenge over the next 20 years is how, if at all, can we can we create some of those global rules, which are in all our interest to be able to solve, because they have to have in order to solve some of these pressing problems, because if we don't have those, will be, but they're not as powerful if you don't work together. And so and that's the challenge, how do you coalesce around a set of, of issues of the magnitude we're talking about?

That can help humanity and serve the public interest. Many challenges Emine, I hear that, yeah, but I think together, right, you know, we need we need to think about those challenges, because they're not going away. And as I said, Creative Commons is a very, very small team. There's only 20 of us at Creative Commons who are trying to in terms of staff, we have a community that and a network, which is which have people across every, well, not every single country that a huge number of countries who are all working away on these issues, who understand what's happening at a local level, who want to see that difference. See that change. So it's that power of our network and our community Working together, as well as thinking about those broader open organizations, and many issue activists in our community are active in other open communities as well. Bringing that together that power to be able to make change is really important in the environment we exist in today.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  30:20  
Yeah, so in that sense, working together to create global rules, and to be able to advocate for open space, what would you recommend to the early career professionals like me to do to make the digital world a better place with more open knowledge, open culture and open mindset? So what should we advocate for? What skills should we gain?

Catherine Stihler OBE  30:44  
So I think it's something I keep coming back to, you know, be and stay curious, because the people I meet in our in our network and community are passionate or interested and want to, and want to see change. I think we've also, I think, we've also shift our mindset of, of letting go rather than holding on. And I think this is important, because so many of the best things in life come from when we stop holding things tight and let go to connect with others. So it's true. with basic things like food, it's also true that what we can create together, and I think there's something there about how, how we can shape the future, by not replicating repeat what happened in the past. And that's not going to happen. And being prepared for what we can do in the next 10 and 20 years, to shape that open world that we want to see and grow our Commons and serve the public interest, and show that there are different ways to do things than what has been traditionally been there, we've changed the all rights reserved copyright regime to a somerights reserved copy regime, we maybe haven't changed that the law and the way we thought copyright law across our world will be changing and you know, this, Emine, you see this in your, in your, in your academic work. And so the elegance of the licenses we created to solve a problem that then could be that then is gone, you know, global as maybe it was, you know, something, you know, what we've done in the past, what we do in the future, how we steward the licenses, how we support at the public domain, how we build on our public interest technology, and talking about the importance of what this means to solving pressing problems that the world faces together is so important, you said about, you know, I think, you know, for early career professionals like yourself, you know, you've got involved in our platform work, you've got involved in our summit work you've got involved in, and that's something as well, we are those that share these interests, you know, this is an open community, people can come and join our club, come and join, join the network, come and be part of what we're trying to do that in that feeling of being, you know, open, open, not just in words, but in actually how we include people that want to be involved is just, it's really important to and I think you you'd experienced, I hope it's been a good one of because I'm so pleased, I'm just you know, it's been great getting to know you, Emine, but that that's also a good thing. For people like myself who are at a different generation, you know, like, I think that's really important that we need to, to, to have a new generation, like yourself who are coming through who understand these issues, but are also bringing that perspective of the world is different from the wars when the internet was first created, or that, you know, or if we're these, you know, these organizations that advocate for open, like Creative Commons were created that 20 years ago. And it's interesting that that 20 years ago marker, there's a proliferation. I mean, Wikimedia, you know, the Internet Archive was 25 years or recently, it was EFF it was 30. You know, there's a lot of organizations that are in this kind of sphere, who all were created around about the same time. And no, today, it's, it's different than it was on those days. So, so it's just great to, to ensure that the work goes on and the work will go on through people like yourself who are, you know, the advocates for, for for a public interest and

putting public interest at the heart of what we're trying to do with technology not just now but in the future? And how do we ensure that public interest builds on a thriving commons, a healthy public domain, and ensuring the knowledge and culture can be accessed for it Free one everywhere. So that knowledge can be built on knowledge and so that we are also addressing issues around equity in terms of access to knowledge, because to me, that is, as I said about my, my grandmother leaving school, you know, kind of not having an education, but relying on her public library to get information, relying on those because you can't afford books to be able to access knowledge in a way which she could access knowledge. And therefore, she was one of the most educated people I've ever known in my whole life. And so what is it about at the moment, we need to do something to ensure that access to knowledge and culture is seen in a prison, not just about where we're using a bit better sharing, but also about our democracy as a whole, because we need to have access to knowledge and information and culture, not just for the joy of some of that, but also to hold power to account and to ensure our democracies are fit and healthy for your future and our future, because so much of what we're doing is linked into how we see ourselves in terms of the world that we're existing within. So I'm so pleased that you're part of our movement Emine, and I'm so pleased that others joining you. And we need to keep that that healthy, that healthy advocacy community, and also keeping these issues on the agenda, ensuring that our voices heard and that we can influence and assure impact and prove that this type of sharing is to the benefit of us all.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  36:49  
Well, first of all, I would like to say tell our listeners that Creative Commons is like a very friendly environment if you ever want to get involved, but we will talk about that a bit later as well. But also what you mentioned about access to know which I feel like we are taking that for granted. Yeah, in general in as a society. And many of us we actually don't seem to care or understand the depth of it. So actually, I have a controversial question about that. Oh, yeah. All right. I'm wondering in a dystopian world where we don't have any tools or mechanisms for better sharing. What do you think would happen to society and fundamental rights, cause it's a bit of a pessimistic approach, but I feel like people should know the depth of not being able to share or access knowledge?

Catherine Stihler OBE  37:47  
Well, sadly, maybe we could already see for that dystopian world looks like. And it's a world where fewer people have have less access to knowledge, education and culture, and a world where information disorder shapes, our politics, our identities, and our destinies. And instead, you know, we can continue to build a better world. And we are working together to create and share the knowledge we need to solve the huge problems we face and the culture we must have to live rich, meaningful lives. And so, you know, we know that that less access to knowledge is not a healthy part of the democracies, we want to, well, you know, at the moment, you know, the world that we're living in is showing the difference between poor you know, a democracy is important. And with the war sad, the tragic war in Ukraine, we can see what the differences in terms of and this has been interesting in terms of that whole misinformation, disinformation. And debate that has been been been going on. So we need to make sure that we don't go down a dystopic future where access to knowledge is limited, we must make sure that we keep that first front and foremost of you know, why working together and sharing knowledge to solve our pressing problems and our huge problems facing humanity, like the climate crisis is important that we work together but I always like a good pessimistic question to kind of try and think through what you know, what is the what what what what is the open alternative and open alternative is one, which I think is is important, too, us all as humanity to be able to live a more joyful and also like to live a life. That is where you can fulfill your potential, where you have, you have a quality of life that enhances your, you know, that enhances, it enhances who you are, what you're doing, and ensures that you have the access to knowledge and culture, which is part of what life is, living is all all about. There's something quite fundamental. When you think about culture and how you how during the pandemic, we couldn't access a museum, we couldn't access it, your teachers were struggling with materials. And we see that, you know, if, if we open up collections, if we open up education materials that can be shared and used, that we all benefit, particularly during the crisis, that one, you know, we're still not through the pandemic, you know, we still are living with this thing that we really need more open sharing, and promote what that means, in terms of open culture, open knowledge, what it means for us, as humanity working together, and how better sharing really is the future, for our,  for his own.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  41:30  
Yeah, I mean, I always like to ask pessimistic and optimistic questions as an academic. Because I, I feel like you should see the both sides to understand that.

Catherine Stihler OBE  41:42  
No, it's true. And we're in doing it. I mean, the world that we're existing, and today is a very, you know, it, it's, it's a challenging one, where we need to have the tools, the open tools, of how we share culture, how we share knowledge, particularly at that, you know, when we're thinking about academic research, and thinking about how that is shared, and how that is used, particularly as a lot of academic research is funded by the taxpayer, and should be openly accessible and many, many of it, but there's something about the global nature of how we exist, the global problems that exist that need that global sharing to be able to solve that. The challenges that we see now around open democracy, we are actually I think, open. I think cultural sharing and open up is central to our open democracies, because of that information, sharing access to knowledge, citizen participation, and how we can connect some of those arguments together, when we've got the challenges around data challenges around AI, that, that the debates around web three, whatever you think about those debates they are there. And the way our world is constantly changing, and technology is constantly changing. But how do we lose interest in serving the public interest and public interest technology? How can we work together and work closely? This is where some of our better internet work is, is happening? But how can we ensure that the gains that we have made in the past 20 years can be built upon and thrive in the next 20 years? Whilst the debates of those who do not share their perspective about sharing who want proprietary systems? How do we ensure that we are that counter argument? Because those arguments do not go away? They are still there. And we have a responsibility to put across why open sharing of culture and knowledge benefits society benefits as all and benefits are democracies?

Emine Ozge Yildirim  44:11  
Well, after our conversation, I'm sure many of our listeners will be very curious about these issues. And they would like to learn more about CC work. I'm wondering if there are any opportunities, channels and venues our listeners can engage in to follow up on CC's work and perhaps, perhaps contribute to discussion? How can they get involved in and do more?

Catherine Stihler OBE  44:36  
Well, it would be lovely, I mean, start by subscribing to our newsletter, which is is a roofie of interesting stories from across the landscape of Creative Commons and community network. And from there, you'll find many ways to engage more deeply that match your interests. And so, you know, as we were speaking about, Emine, you've been involved in the copyright working group. And I think that, you know, the copyright platform. And I think that's been really a great opportunity for those who are interested to dig more deeply. But also, you know, the speakers that have been coming to the copyright part for being just phenomenal and, and really playing to that issue that this is a global issue, copyright reform. And so hearing from some of those experts who are coming from, from different countries, but sometimes it's the same issues that we're dealing with and grappling with, and how we can work more closely together to share the, you know, how maybe we've dealt with it in a different place and how we can support one another, I think, is it's been really helpful. And, and we've got, as you know, other working groups and platforms where people can join and help people can join our network, we've got our summit coming up next year, we're not having a summit this year. But we're having hopefully fingers toes crossed, and in person Summit, if it will allow us to, which will be wonderful, had virtual summits for the past two years. And so it's wonderful that we could come together, because that personal connection, I think we're all missing that and it rules, you know, let's let's fingers toes crossed, that this will be possible. But again, that's another way people can get involved is coming to summit presenting at Summit. And also we've got our Open Minds podcast that people can tune into and listen to with a variety of fascinating speakers who are doing some fascinating work in the open space, and changing minds, mindset systems with the work that they're doing. So encourage any of your listeners to listen to the podcast. If you're curious about this world, please come and get involved. And there are multiple ways that you can do that. The first one is sign up to our newsletter.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  46:59  
Wow, that's awesome. We'll make sure to include the links in the description of this episode. But I think they can also sign up to their local chapters as well. Right if they want. Yeah, yeah.

Catherine Stihler OBE  47:12  
In a more local level as well. Absolutely. To then there's some wonderful as you know, chapters that we have, I think know the numbers that was it, 40 chapters we have globally at the moment, and they can really, we just, you know, it's just amazing. You know, when someone from Korea, South Korea gets in touch about a conference and then someone in Brazil is working in cultural heritage and someone in Indonesia is doing a project with is it's phenomenal what you're seeing and what we're experiencing day to day level of that, that interest, excitement, curiosity about what open sharing can do, and why building knowledge and culture is so important to build more knowledge, but also to ensure that the public interest is best served. So, it's every day, we share something every day. And it's wonderful to see the impact of Creative Commons globally, on a day to day basis.

Emine Ozge Yildirim  48:22  
Yeah, I'm also very moved by the diversity, the diverse people I had the chance to meet to chat with. So I'm grateful for that opportunity as well. And on that note, I would like to conclude our sixth episode of The Tech Policy Grind podcast. Thank you so much, Catherine for joining us today. And be sure to check out Creative Commons website and social media channels to learn more about their initiatives and events and we will also include the links below.

Reema Moussa  49:00  
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Tech policy Grind podcast by the internet law and policy foundry. Be sure to check out the foundry on LinkedIn and Twitter. And if you enjoyed this episode, leave us a review and give us a five star rating, really helps out the show. If you're interested in supporting the show, reach out to us at foundrypodcast@ilpfoundry.us. You can find our email in the show notes as well. The tech policy grind podcast comes out every other Thursday. See you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai