Reema Moussa  0:00  
From the Internet Law and Policy Foundry, this is the Tech Policy Grind podcast. Every week, our fellows chat with leaders in the technology and internet law and policy space on recent developments and exciting topics such as privacy, internet governance, cybersecurity, tech legislation, and more. I'm your host, Reema Moussa, and I'm a member of the fourth cohort of Foundry Fellows. The Foundry is a collaborative organization for internet law and policy professionals who are passionate about disruptive innovation.

Welcome back to the Tech Policy Grind. This week, I chatted with Joe Catapano, a Foundry Fellow and the communications chair for the fourth cohort of fellows. He's also the senior manager for stakeholder engagement in North America for the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers or ICANN. He works on a host of tech policy issues related to the domain name system, interfacing with a broad based community, including business, civil society, governments, academia, and the technical community. Hi, Joe, thanks for coming on the show today.

Joe Catapano  1:23  
Hi, thank you for having me.

Reema Moussa  1:25  
Absolutely. So you have a really interesting career and I want to just dive right into it. What is it that got you started in this field of tech law and policy?

Joe Catapano  1:40  
So in 2012, I was working at the United Nations Foundation, I was working on U.S-U.N. relations, mainly securing United States funding for the UN. But from time to time, the UN itself would have special projects that the foundation would take on. So for reference, the United Nations Foundation is a nonprofit, it's separate from the UN itself. However, it functions kind of as the UN's best friend in a way. And so there would be certain initiatives and projects that the UN Foundation staff would work on to, to help the UN. One of those in 2012 was for the International Telecommunications Union, which is actually a body that predates the United Nations itself but eventually it came under the umbrella of the UN. And they're the UN's body that works on tech policy. And at the time, there was a conference called the I believe its the World Conference on International Telecommunications, and in the tech policy space, we like acronyms, so it's WCIT, WCIT. And my job mainly was to communicate about the meeting itself. So the UN, itself, and the foundation didn't really take a position on anything. We were more of, you know, communicating that the meetings happening here, so you can engage with it and that kind of thing. Nonetheless, in my work, I began following the meeting. And it was very interesting. There was a lot of content in there that I knew very little about, but I found fascinating. And so part of what was happening at this meeting, were there were stark differences between two different kinds of camps, if you will, so you had the US and Europe another what we would, I guess, commonly referred to as you know, the Western world, quote, unquote, advocating for maintaining the status quo, if you will, of kind of a multi stakeholder model of internet governance. And then you had another camp that wanted to have more of a treaty body, perform a lot of the critical internet functions and bring it under the UN and have it operate in kind of a one nation one vote type system. And the meeting got very heated and, you know, the sides basically threw up their hands and walked out of the room. And while that's obviously not productive, I found it dramatic and interesting and I was like, oh, this is kind of cool this is an interesting space to kind of watch right so. So I did. And that's how I learned about, ICANN, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers. And I was like, okay, you know, let me let me take a look at this and just see what it's all about. As I learned more about it, I just found it really fascinating and really unique. I had interactions with other multistakeholder initiatives at the foundation, mainly in the area of the environment and like climate. So the Rio +20 conference was something that was happening at the same time Iwas at the foundation, and that was kind of my prototype for multi stakeholder governance. And then when I looked at ICANN, I saw an organization and what it worked on, and I was like, oh, wow, this is really how it's done. And, and it just became just something that that I really got very interested in. And it was coming time for me at the foundation to, to look to make a move. And as I followed, ICANN, you know, I was looking at some things and they had a they had a job at the time, I think it was, I think it was like working with the CEO's like correspondence with governments and the UN and stuff like that. And I thought that was interesting. So I applied for it. I interviewed for it, I got a couple rounds of interviews, I actually interviewed with CEO, and I wound up not getting the job. And then you fast forward. Probably nine months later, probably the fall of 2013, late summer probably and I saw another position open up, I'd still been kind of keeping track of ICANN and that whole kind of multi stakeholder, multilateral tussle that was going on. And it was a stakeholder engagement job. I didn't really know what stakeholder engagement meant, but it looked like it fit my skills so. So I applied to that. And I interviewed and I eventually eventually got it. And I came on board in September of 2013. And that's that's now its almost nine years ago now it's it's hard to believe but but that's how I that's how I got into Internet governance and tech policy. And ICANN, and it has been quite a ride. I mean, it's unlike really unlike any other organization I've ever worked with, or or come into contact with. It's it's it's really interesting stuff.

Reema Moussa  7:33  
You hit on a really interesting and important point there on the importance of perseverance, and, you know, if you don't get your initial dream job, then there's so much merit in just keeping your eye on on other opportunities that that might crop up. And then you never know now looking back nine years later here, here you are. I want to get into your current work at ICANN a little bit. So what are you working on right now? And what are some interesting projects that you've worked on before?

Joe Catapano  8:19  
So, I mean, I think, you know, my, again, this kind of stakeholder engagement position is pretty unique. It's a bit of a hybrid in a way I kind of function as a bit of a nerve center for liaising with, not only externally with the stakeholders, in the space in business, civil society, government, academia, and of course, the technical community, but also internally and coordinating between different departments, at ICANN to, you know, either get the word out or support the active stakeholders that are participating in ICANN's, policy development processes. So, you know, that involves working with the communications department, the domains and strategy department, and communicate and coordinate the legal department and public responsibility. So it's, you know, it's really touches kind of every part of the organization and every part of, you know, kind of the field of work that we do. You know, as far as you know, what's going on right now. I mean, it's, it's a very busy time. I mean, in some ways, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I mean, I think a lot of similar discussions are happening, kind of on the inter governmental front, right. So there are a lot of these multi stakeholder and multi lateral meetings that are happening, either as we speak or also later in the fall, that would be really important to the future of how critical internet resources are managed, right. So there's, for the ITU itself, right, there's a plenipotentiary, which is in the fall, the Internet Governance Forum, and then later the, the World Summit on the Information Society, WSIS plus 20. Right, so that'll be next year, that'll be 2023. So there's those conversations that are happening. And then of course, you know, internally, not internally, but more kind of narrower scope in terms of just ICANN itself, there's obviously a lot going on right now we have our annual general meeting, which is coming up at the end of September, ICANN 75. So there is a lot of prep work that goes into executing an ICANN meeting and making sure that it's the best experience not only for, you know, the stakeholders that you know, either traveled to the meeting or if they participate remotely, to do that, but also, also, you know, the host country itself, which the medium being Kuala Lumpur, here in September. So there's a lot there. There are different working groups at ICANN working on a whole host of issues, including areas around new generic top level domains, right, the program that was launched in 2012, just before I got there or here and then also, you know, a prospective, you know, new round of those in the future. So very busy time.

Reema Moussa  11:57  
I can only imagine. And so you've mentioned a couple of different meetings where there's discussions going on on different facets of internet governance. But what do these meetings look like in practice? What happens at a typical meeting? And maybe we can take an ICANN meeting as an example?

Joe Catapano  12:23  
Yeah, so I mean, for an ICANN meeting itself, it is, you know, it's, we're operating obviously, in in a pandemic environment, I hesitate to say, post pandemic we are doing this Kuala Lumpur meeting will be our second in person meeting since since the restrictions are lifted. So, you know, with ICANN in some ways, we've always been a hybrid. I mean, there's always been a robust, remote participation at ICANN meetings. It is now even more so since the pandemic, I mean, we've gotten really good at that aspect of things. So you don't need to be, you know, physically on the ground to participate. Obviously, there's challenges with timezone, and depending on where you live and, and connectivity, obviously, there's, there's always going to be challenges with that. And, and I am, you know, always of the of the mind that nothing can really replace kind of in person interaction and experience. But these resources are there, and they're good. They'll typically be set like for for a meeting like the one in September, which is kind of the largest one, so the annual general meetings. So it's the broadest in scope, right, it's about it's almost a week, in length. So there's usually kind of a welcome kind of ceremony with with dignitaries and others, and, you know, there'll be some speeches on, you know, the issues that are going to be covered at the meeting. It's unclear to me if that that did not happen in the last meeting that was just hybrid and it's unclear if it's going to happen in this one because of the pandemic and having people you know, there's restrictions on who can be in the room etc. But but it would typically start with some kind of curtain raiser like that, and then the different working groups at ICANN begin you know, kind of break off and begin discussing policies and their different constituencies and, and, and then obviously, feed in remote participation for all of those. There's a there's typically a day set out during the meeting where each constituency from those sectors that I mentioned before, like there's a civil society, government, etc, meet with the ICANN Board. So there'll be that there'll be different engagement events and things around it. It's again, less so during the pandemic, but in pre pandemic days, there would be there would be quite a bit of that. And then eventually, like in September at the end, there'll be a public board meeting where the board will vote on resolutions and such. That's kind of the flow of it. But, you know, the kind of interesting thing about ICANN, a lot of these internet governance bodies, is a lot of it happens not at the meeting itself. Right. So there's a lot of conference calls and work on email lists, and you know, it's a, it's a 24/7 thing, right? So that it's, it's really, it takes a lot of dedication to be, you know, part of this ecosystem and develop policy here. But that gives us just kind of a little snapshot. 

Reema Moussa  15:57  
We'll be right back.

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So I want to shift gears a bit and ask about the IANA transition. So what is it? And what did your work on that project entail?

Joe Catapano  17:17  
Yeah, so the well first off IANA is another acronym. And that stands for the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority. And that is the largest project that that I've worked on since I've been at ICANN and is sort of widely recognized as the kind of seminal moment for multistakeholder internet governance. It was something that was envisioned, really since ICANN's founding in 1998. And, you know, it took a long time to get there. But basically, so I came in, I came to ICANN in the fall of 2013. And then I think about six months later, maybe a little less the the National Telecommunications and Information Administration or NTIA, which is an agency within the Department of Commerce, declared that they were going to ask that the what they call the IANA functions, which are basically the resource of it the names and the numbers, that the stewardship over that be transferred from the US government, to the global multistakeholder community. And they asked ICANN to be the convener of the process to kind of shepherd that through and come up with the kind of framework with for what would replace you know NTIA in that role. And so, you know, when we talk about kind of stewardship over the functions, right, so ICANN you know, IANA is a department of ICANN, right. And so when ICANN was formed we were tasked to to maintain those functions, but the US government kind of maintained I guess, kind of a oversight role of sorts in in that if there were changes to the root zone the ICANN, before they went to the company that is the root zone operator, which is VeriSign, they would go to the US government, and the US government in the form of NTIA, and they would okay that right. And so it was seen you kind of globally, as, you know, it was kind of the last tether of kind of what people would see as US kind of control over the internet right. And I think it was you know, causing a lot of think misperception that the US kind of still controlled the internet. So I think it was, it was very important, not only from an optics wise, but also to prove the, you know, the worth of multistakeholder internet governance and prove that it worked, right so. So what this was was, it would take kind of NTIA out of that role, and then replace it with, you know, kind of a multi stakeholder community and accountability mechanisms for ICANN the organization, right. And so my role in that was a lot of strategic planning, awareness raising, and education, communications. Because a lot of people didn't know that ICANN existed. Again, like, as I said, at the top of the show, I didn't even know it existed, right? So a little bit of what like we would term is kind of bringing ICANN to the world and saying, hey, here we are, here's the important function that we serve. And there's, you know, this is happening, and here's how you can be involved. So a little bit of that, a lot of supporting the community of stakeholders that were already involved at ICANN, who had been involved for, you know, decades already, and making sure that they were supported in the work, right, because ICANN the organization, we function mainly is as a secretariat, right? I mean, the community of stakeholders are who, you know, sets the policy, right. And then obviously, the board, you know, has the authority, you know, as far as ratifying is concerned. But, you know, our function is to is in support of the community, right. So it's a little bit of, you know, kind of supporting them, and while at the same time doing some awareness raising education, about this whole internet governance thing, which was very new to a lot of people in 2013. And now, obviously, in my region, you know, I'm tasked with the US and Canada and North America, right. So a lot of my stakeholders knew about ICANN and were involved. But a lot of my colleagues in the other regions, their governments, and other stakeholders just didn't know at all right. And so a lot of kind of talking to, you know, colleagues on the members of the engagement team working with their governments and saying, you know, there's a place for you at the table at ICANN, right, in the form of we have something called the government advisory committee, where there's governments and there was just we saw just a very high ramp up of participation in that area, we're now up to over 170 governments participating in the government advisory committee and over 30 observers. So you know, there was a lot of a lot of that kind of work of, you know, in some way selling the model and proving that, that, you know, this, the internet has worked, it's worked very well and this is part of the reason why. And, you know, obviously, there was, in my being in DC, right, there was a heavy kind of Washington component to the whole thing. And so going around the universities and technical organizations and think tanks, pardon me, and doing roundtables and, and things of that nature, to really kind of build the case for multistakeholder internet governance and really, you know, kind of let the community shine a little bit and, and it was, you know, it was a lot of work I mean it was two years. I mean, the transition didn't go through, like I said, they the Commerce Department initiated it in I think it was March of 2014, if I remember correctly, and it wasn't completed until October 1st of 2016. So it was a long campaign but, but well worth it.

Reema Moussa  25:00  
So how is that model shaping up now? And what are some of the challenges face contemporarily in continuing the work of IANA?

Joe Catapano  25:14  
I think what we're seeing now is is very similar to what we saw a decade ago only with a bit of a bit of a twist. I mean, you're still seeing, even despite the success of the IANA transition and the success of the multistakeholder model, you're still seeing corners of the world where you know, there are there are nations that have just very different ideas about how the internet should be governed right. And those are trying to figure out, you know, I think I think countries sometimes struggle to find where they fit in Internet governance. And there's a place for them at ICANN, right, and the government advisory committee, and that's something we continually try and, you know, impress upon people, but there is, you know, always going to be a bit of a, a bit of a tussle, and a bit of, you know, folks who would like to see more of a UN type governance model, a multilateral type model. And so that's still present. I think that's something that that, you know, just continually comes up, I think we're also now you know, 2022 is way different than 2014, in the sense of, kind of rising nationalism. And, you know, where does the internet fit into that? Right, at ICANN, you know, our thing is a single, stable, secure, and interoperable internet, right. But as you layer in kind of other things, things that really don't touch on ICANN's remit like content, and, and then some other elements of, you know, privacy and things like that you see kind of a more nationalistic tinge to what a lot of countries are doing. And that is creating some that's, that's creating some challenges for, you know, for the community.

Reema Moussa  27:42  
Digging into a little bit more about you, what are you reading or listening to right now?

Joe Catapano  27:52  
The Ramones? I'm just kidding. Ao I mean, I think, you know, in all seriousness, I mean, from a tech policy perspective, I think, I listened to the Sunday Show by Tech Policy Press a lot. I think that's, that's good. Also, there's one from a think tank in DC, called the Innovation Files, which is pretty good. And then obviously, the Tech Policy Grind. And then kind of, you know, outside of tech policy, just just kind of broader things. I listened to the Lost Debate a lot, which is a podcast, which is I mean, it's like a, it's a, there's a democrat, there's a libertarian, and then there's, I guess, kind of a conservative, and I and so it's a it's like a it's a nice podcast that talks about contemporary issues without like, kind of the nonsense of like a, you know, of a cable news show where like, everybody's yelling at each other, like, they, you know, seem to be civil. And, you know, I like things that challenge your thinking, right, I enjoy you know, I might not agree with someone when they when I'm, you know, listening to them or reading what they say, but if they're, you know, saying it in an intelligent way, and communicating it effectively, then, you know, I want to hear that because I think that, I think that's helpful. In terms of what I'm reading, I mean, you know, it's, it's August in DC, I think the heat index is like, almost 100 degrees now today, so, so most of my reading is, is pretty light right now. So I'm reading I'm a big baseball nut. So I'm reading the biography of Tom Seaver, the great pitcher for the Mets. And then I'm also reading a book that is quite long. It's longer than I thought it was going to be. But it's called Tinderbox. It's about the history of HBO. And I've always had kind of a just fascination with with media in general and the development of media be it radio, TV or film. In terms of if anybody's listening who's not who's kind of looking for fodder for, you know, kind of tech, politics, tech policy or internet governance, I think I'll give a couple pops for Professor Laura DeNardis' books. They're several years old now but they're still really relevant. "Internet and Everything" and "Protocol Politics" were, those are really important resources for me when I first started here, because again, I didn't really know which way it was up when I got to ICANN. And so it's a it's a steep kind of learning curve. It takes it takes a while, but but it's worth it.

Reema Moussa  30:46  
So you have an eight year old, how does your son impact your sort of drive and motivation to help govern the internet?

Joe Catapano  31:04  
Well, I mean, you know, it's interesting, right, so so I will always remember that my first day at ICANN was September 16, of 2013. And there's no reason why I would remember my first day at any other company, or this one, other than the fact that on September 22 2013, my son was born. So it was like, got hired, came to the office, got settled, and then looked to my boss, sounds like I'm seeing them on. You know, so. So it's kind of interesting, like my, ICANN, my time at ICANN is very strongly tied to, to my son and kind of his development and all my colleagues remember him, you know, kind of running around the office when he was when he was really little. So it's kind of interesting. You know, it, it's tough to do tech policy and internet governance, and ICANN work as a parent, I will say that, you know, it's not easy, right. So there's a lot of travel when things are not, you know, when we're not in a pandemic, right. And some of that is started, you know, we've, we've started some travel that I can now certainly not on the level, but that it was back in 2019. But, but eventually, hopefully, it will, you know, get back to where it was because it's important work. So there's a lot of travel, there's calls it bizarre hours sometimes, right? I mean, it is a global thing, right? The Internet is a global resource. So there's, there's always, you know, you know, a call you gotta be on. So it's a lot about kind of managing your day and, you know, making sure you build in kind of not only breaks for yourself, but also build in, you know, kind of that, that family time, you know, ICANN meetings, ICANN public meetings, like we talked about, right, there's, there's they're long days and I think that holds true for other internet governance meetings, via the IGF or anything else. And, you know, it's, but it's important, because, you know, I mean, the internet is, is just vital, I mean, to, it's vital to my life, right. And, and, and I'm 40 and he's eight, right? So if it's so vital to me, imagine how important it's going to be for him as advances come along, right? I mean, I can't, you know, it's interesting, we were driving from I think we were coming back from the zoo or something, and, and, you know, put my phone up mounted on put the, you know, put the map on, and, and it was, it wasn't working, right, there wasn't like service. And I kind of knew the roads a little bit, but he was like, uh, what do we do? And I was like, well, I'm gonna have to go through the story of like, you know, we didn't always have that, right. But, you know, for him, it's like, those things are just like, built in, right, and there's going to be even more innovation. So it's important that, you know, we, you know, that I, you know, it's kind of a you know, that I, you know, show up and help, you know, this community, you know, do their work and, and help, you know, maintain, maintain a single global internet that that thrives.

Reema Moussa  34:43  
Absolutely. Do you have any advice for parents who are in the field of tech policy and sort of maintaining that family life and and commitment to, to the work with all it's all it's chaos and crazy schedules?

Joe Catapano  35:09  
Yeah, I mean, I think I would just say, you know, fam, like, family first type thing, right? Make sure you, you take care of your relationships at home, be it with your son or daughter, your spouse, your grandparents or whomever, you know, make sure that that in the, in the, you know, inclination to sign up for a meeting or go travel to this thing or take this call or take that meeting, that you, you know, just keep in mind that, you know, it, the work is always going to be there. Right. And but, but those moments, you know, you know, with with your family, particularly if you have a little kid, you know, they're there, they're fleeting, in a way, so, so make sure that, that you prioritize them and prioritize that because, you know, meetings will come and go, and you'll, you know, win some battles and you lose some battles, you know, kind of career wise and professionally, but you know, but but your family is always always going to be there, and you want to make sure that you're there for them, too.

Reema Moussa  36:42  
So, before we wrap up, I want to get into our event coming up next week, with Vint Cerf and Steve Crocker, that I'm thrilled that we'll be will be co moderating. So do you want to give the audience a little preview of what to expect with our next podcast episode? And, and some highlights of what you anticipate from the conversation?

Joe Catapano  37:17  
Yeah, so I mean, it's, it's really exciting. And I'm really excited to be hosting it with you, in Washington, just a block away from the White House, at WeWork White House. It's really great. I mean, I've known Vint, and Steve, for quite some time. They're both past chairs of the ICANN Board. And I worked with both of them a lot during the transition days. I mean, Steve was chair of the ICANN Board during during those years, and Vint, who was still at Google, was was there in that capacity as well, then. And, you know, I've just always wanted to have an hour to just sit and talk to them. And I've obviously seen them in ICANN meetings, or in Vint's case at Regional Internet Registry meetings. You know, but it's always like, you know, there's always a lot of lot going on, right? So we just have a dedicated, you know, 60 minutes to just talk to them about, you know, first off, I mean, their kind of relationship is fascinating, right, because of childhood friends. That, you know, worked on, you know, this thing together and, and it blossomed into into what it is now, so kind of a look at, you know, what, what was going through your head then, you know. Like, how was I was all how did all this come about? And then a little bit of a retrospective, right. So here we are right in 1969. Right, ARPANET and now here we are in 2022. You know, take a look at that, and what do you think, you know, like, just what do you see what, what, what parts of your vision were fulfilled and what maybe is still not quite there yet. You know, what are your thoughts on the challenges? And, you know, I think it's, I think it's just really, it's going to be a real, real treat to just have have those two guys and just be able to connect them with other folks at the Foundry. And then and then obviously others you know, in the community because there's just so much to learn from from both of them that they're just brilliant people.

Reema Moussa  39:48  
I can't wait. I think it'll be really fascinating conversation, to hear from their perspectives and ample experience in pioneering the internet. So I'm very excited. And for anyone tuning in, make sure that you either tune into the live stream, which will be happening at 4pm Eastern time next week on August 18th, a week from today. And if you're in DC, consider popping by we have an Eventbrite link where you can sign up so all of that info will be in the shownotes. Well, Joe, thank you so much for coming on. It was a pleasure.

Joe Catapano  40:44  
Thanks so much, Reema.

Reema Moussa  40:48  
Thanks for listening to this episode of The Tech policy Grind podcast. Be sure to check out the Foundry on LinkedIn and Twitter. And if you enjoyed this episode, leave us a review and give us a five star rating. It really helps out the show. If you're interested in supporting the show, reach out to us at foundrypodcasts@ILPfoundry.us. You can find our email in the show notes as well. You can see the full show notes and download the episode transcript for every episode on our website ILPfoundry.us/podcast. The Tech Policy Grind podcast comes out every Thursday. See you next time. The Tech Policy Grind podcast was created by the fellows at the Internet Law and Policy Foundry. It's produced and edited by me Reema Moussa, with support from the incredible Foundry Fellows. Special thanks to Lama Mohammed, our social coordinator, and Allyson McReynolds, our accessibility coordinator for their support in bringing this episode to air.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai