Reema Moussa 00:00 From the Internet Law and Policy Foundary, this is the Tech Policy Grind podcast. Every week, our fellows chat with leaders in the technology and internet law and policy space on recent developments and exciting topics such as privacy, internet governance, cybersecurity, tech legislation, and more. I'm your host, Reema Moussa, and I'm a member of the fourth cohort of Foundry Fellows. The Foundry is a collaborative organization for law and policy professionals who are passionate about disruptive innovation. Welcome back to the Tech Policy Grind. It's an exciting time for the podcast as we're now on the air with new episode releases every week. This week Foundry Fellow Meri Baghdasaryan unpacks, The World of Internet governance with Dustin Loup, co-chair of the Internet Governance Forum or IGF USA, and Jeremy Bernick, a co-organizer of the inaugural Youth IGF USA, keep listening to learn about the IGF, how it's organized, and how you can get involved. Meri Baghdasaryan 01:16 Hi, Jeremy and Dustin, welcome to Tech Policy Grind. How are you today? Dustin Loup 01:22 Doing great. Jeremy Bernick 01:24 Doing really great. Nice to see you Meri. Meri Baghdasaryan 01:26 Thanks for taking the time to join. And so today we are discussing all things Internet governance, and my quest first question will be to Dustin. So what is an Internet Governance Forum or as we call it, IGF and how all of this started in U.S.? Dustin Loup 01:46 Yeah, thanks, Meri, thanks for having having us on the podcast. So I think to properly tee up what the Internet Governance Forum in the US is have to provide a little bit of history in terms of where the concept of the Internet Governance Forum came from, and the discussions at the time that it emerged out of. So an Internet Governance Forum or the Internet Governance Forum is it's a global multi stakeholder process that convenes members of government, academia, the private sector, civil society, and technical experts to come together and have open vigorous dialogue without the threat of binding outcomes, which allows for more open discussions around a lot of the issues facing the internet currently, and the evolution of the Internet. And so this emerged out of the World Summit for the Information Society, which was convened by the United Nations back in 2003, and 2005. And at that time, there were a lot of discussions around the role of the US in ICANN and the Domain Name System. And there were a lot of discussions around the role of government and multilateral institutions in taking an active role in how policies and governance was crafted around the global Internet. And in this process, what emerged was this concept of the Internet Governance Forum, which was a little bit of a unique way for there to be this global gathering that involved governments, but took a different approach than the typical multilateral forum that we might see in a lot of other issues. And so the emerging out of this was the first IGF in 2006. And then we saw over a period of a few years after that, this, I guess, an unplanned outcome of the global Internet Governance Forum, which was these organic, independent national and regional forums, cropping up and facilitating local conversations around all of the same issues that were being discussed at the Global Forum, but taking that and coordinating that national or regional perspective in a way that it could be better represented at the global level. And so that, that trend, IGF USA was not the first, but we were earlier on in the process, the first Internet Governance Forum USA conference was held in 2009. And we've held it every year since then, with the exception of one year. And it has just been a space for us to come together and identify which issues are most important to us each year, and facilitate these multi stakeholder discussions nationally, and figure out where to take those discussions next, and how to incorporate them into the global conversation, and how to incorporate them to other aspects of the conversations that are happening here in the US. Meri Baghdasaryan 06:08 Thank you, Dustin, for walking us through the history of internet governance forums. And as you mentioned, it seems that those initiatives, emerged organically and were aimed at shifting the paradigm of having more multilateral governance models in this space. But I guess my next question is how do people like ordinary people get involved in these initiatives? And how did you two get involved in this, and I would like to hear Jeremy's story first. Jeremy Bernick 06:42 Sure, thank you, Meri. And thank you for having me on the podcast. And I just wanted to say that Dustin, that was a really, really good, brief history of a very complicated group of people. So well done. I got involved in a more maze like way, I was working at a company called Cloudflare. That had hired me as an intern on their product management team. And instead of actually doing the work that I should have been doing that summer, I was watching some of my colleagues be involved in other internet governance organizations. The one in particular was the Internet Engineering Task Force, which is responsible for the development and standardization of some of the core protocols and future protocols that allow for the Internet to be interoperable, and standardize globally for everybody. And I thought to myself, This is so fascinating that all these people are not being paid necessarily to be here, but out of goodwill are interested in keeping these systems intact. And what does that mean for the potential fragility of those systems? Are we at all threatening the stability of this global public good, by having these good aamaritans of sorts digital good samaritans, putting so much effort towards these systems. And I was in college at the time and so my internship ended. But I remained very stuck on this idea of the fragility and interoperability of this global public good, being maintained by a bunch of volunteers per se. And what that led me to was doing some more research discovering the Internet Society, which historically has seemed to be sort of the engine of advocacy and awareness for both existing and new people in the space of internet governance. I applied for the Internet, Youth Ambassador Program. And I was admitted, and I did a comprehensive three month fellowship class and I ended up attending the IGF in Katowice in 2021. And so, through all those machinations, I realized, you know, internally, we had an event in the US. And I think honestly, what I did was a a went to a steering committee meeting. And I tried to figure out who was in charge, and I think I just privately, messaged Dustin, and I said, hey, what can I do to be more involved? I think this is really cool. And from there, the relationship has been awesome and led to the Youth Internet Governance Forum for the US and hopefully future opportunities as well so. Meri Baghdasaryan 10:00 That sounds wonderful Jeremy and as someone involved in this space, I could also attest that everyone's journey to this internet governance ecosystem is unique and quite interesting. What about you, Dustin? How did you get involved? Dustin Loup 10:15 Yeah, I can completely agree with what you just said, Meri, everyone's journey is very unique in the space. And that's true of those just entering the internet governance world and those that have been there since the beginning. I don't know that I can count the number of times that I've been talking to somebody about how they got started and it all began with a degree in English literature, or one of my favorite stories is about someone who was involved in the punk rock scene that got involved in internet governance, because the internet is punk rock. And and there's just so many stories like that. And it really contributes to this diverse and also eccentric space and community that, as Jeremy alluded to, includes a lot of a lot of volunteers contributing time to make all of these things happen. And I do think that there's an important conversation in there around the sustainability of that model, but also the the equity in that model, because not everyone has the capacity to volunteer their time, especially when that involves the amount of time that it takes but also the travel. And certainly we've increased the capacity to engage virtually, but also there's still that benefit of being together in person and having those conversations in the hall and building relationships by being in the same space. And so anyone can get involved but I do think that there are important conversations that we need to have that ensure that it's not just the voices that have the resources to be in the room that get to contribute, but that we really elevate the voices and find ways to enable the participation that ensures more more equity in that in this space. So sorry, that was a long tangent, preamble to my story, but I got involved in this space I think it was about eight years ago now. And I was somewhat freshly out of college and had really gravitated towards some of the courses while I was in school, that focused on the internet and what that means for policy, and what that means for our society. And was fortunate enough to have some really weird and creative professors who really dug into some of the quirky aspects of the internet and highlighted all of the capacity that it had to empower individuals and communities to drive change. And, and so that was always in my mind as a possibility. But you know, like anyone coming out of school, was just looking for an opportunity. And when I was searching for jobs, and I found this posting for this little nonprofit called ICANNWiki. And it's at the time it was just two of us working to document and demystify the world of the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers, that creates the policies that govern the Domain Name System. And and that organization also is home to the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority which also acts as the managing registry for the IP addresses that the internet uses. So essentially, this, this entity is responsible for managing the internet's unique identifiers. And, and this is one of those spaces where it takes years to understand how all of these quirky, unique processes actually work. And so it was getting to look at it, observe it, and write about it and help demystify it for others was really a unique opportunity to assess all of the seen and, and dive in deep and certain issues. And as I was doing, so I got drawn to the Internet Governance Forum USA and the Washington DC chapter of the Internet Society. And so I just raised my hand to get involved in addition to my work in the ICANN community, and the rest is really kind of history there. Like I didn't know what I was getting into but here we are, all this time later. And I still find myself co-chairing the IGF USA, and running the DC chapter of the Internet Society. Meri Baghdasaryan 16:52 Another example of a fascinating story. And it's so interesting that the three of us ended up in this space from completely different spaces. And still, it's a place that draws us and as Jeremy mentioned, this is done most of the time, voluntarily, as you know, free volunteer work. But all these people in the community are so I would say more mission driven. That is why it's so interesting to be in this space. And you can learn so much from everyone doing this important work. So I think I would love to focus more on IGF USA, and especially IGF USA 2022. And let's start with the organizing process. So how, how it works, usually, how do you prepare for the next edition of an IGF USA? And how was it different if at all this year, because it was a hybrid event? Dustin Loup 18:01 Yeah, thank you for that question. Before I answer it, just want to encourage anyone listening as as we describe this process of organization, I would like to flag that it is open to anyone that would like to contribute to the process. So if this sounds like something that you're interested in, would very much encourage you to go on to IGFUSA.us, and sign up for our listserv so that we can loop you into the planning process as we look toward IGF USA 2023 now. But also want to talk about the planning process in general and what it looked like in 2022. Our model of organizing for each year's event has largely remained the same, at least over the course of my tenure, where we open up the process very early in the year, typically in January, to the entire community. And, and the community is this amorphous informal concept. So really, it's open to anyone that wants to send in ideas, but we basically put out this call and say, we want to know what the most important issues are that are currently facing the internet and its its evolution, and what are the areas that you're most focused on. And we don't ask for fully, fully written proposals. We really just want to get a sense in a free form manner, where people are focused and what their concerns and and hopes are. And then we sit down with the all of the submissions that we get, and figure out where some of that connective tissue is, and tried to identify some trends and organize it into a number of different possible tracks of work that we can undertake to develop a vigorous discussion at the annual conference. And that takes the form of a survey will usually put out a survey that presents 25 different topics typically organized into a handful of broader issue areas, and ask the the broader community to indicate which ones they are interested in hearing about, which ones they're interested in speaking about, and which ones they're interested in helping to develop. And based on those results, we typically break out into eight or nine tracks, to develop working groups that craft unique conversations around the selected topics that bring in a wide range of perspectives and diversity, including ensuring stakeholder balance that includes members of civil society, the private sector, and government representatives and others. And so that process is a labor of love, for sure. But a lot of times, not only do you get the fantastic outcome of the sessions that we have at the IGF USA each year, but you also have fascinating conversations in the build up to that in terms of figuring out how you boil down a complex topic into a 75 minute session while bringing in stakeholder diversity, regional diversity, and inclusive representation. And so that's been that is always a really insightful and interesting process. As far as how that has changed, we have moved in recent years to an entirely virtual planning process. We've always embraced the hybrid model at least as long as I've been involved, all of our steering committee meetings and group meetings have had virtual participation as an option. But we went entirely virtual, which kind of levels the playing field of contribution, and has has allowed a lot more people to get involved in the planning process, and a lot more people from different areas outside of DC, which has contributed to our ongoing goal of expanding thinking beyond the Beltway. Meri Baghdasaryan 23:48 Thank you so much, Dustin, for doing this rundown of the organizing process. I would love to turn to Jeremy and hear his thoughts and some insights into his experience of joining the organizing of IGF USA 2022. Because he mentioned that he reached out to you to learn about some opportunities to volunteer, and also love to hear his perspective on how was the conference this year. And how was it to join it as a participant? Jeremy Bernick 24:24 Yeah, thank you, Meri. So I just wanted to first start off by saying that the organizing process of the IGF USA is both a very bizarre ritual, but also a very beautiful display of democratic participation and coordination. And I think could be looked at as maybe an example of how we can progress further in other fields by pushing multi stakeholder participation and to kind of demystify that, because it is jargony, to say that there should be more people that are having a voice and having a viewpoint that's being expressed in these broader conversations that have material impact on every end user. We all live in various systems, whether it's the town we live in, or the internet that we exist on. But the ways in which we express and vote on our choices seem to be insufficient. And so I think, kudos to the Internet governance movement and towards the IGF USA, there is a beautiful egalitarian process demonstrated by this kind of shared coordination of ideas, values and in themes. And so I was involved from the early end of that process. And subjectively, what I was interested in, or I guess, self interested in was ways in which we could talk about youth on the internet. I, I am somebody who is a member of the youngest generation, Gen Z. And I'm particularly interested in the ways in which users from that demographic group, occupy space online, have a voice in the policy outcomes online, and other questions related to, you know, internet governance work. And I think that, I realized that if it was to come together in the form of just another theme within the broader IGF USA event, that topic might be diluted in a way. And so I was interested in taking a different route, which led to the Youth IGF USA event, as a way to center the voices of younger people who are new either to the space, or have a different experience online, then the older generations do and to try to push their voices farther than historically they've been allowed to go. That's the first part. The second part of your question, Meri, about participating versus organizing, is really fun, because you almost get this very sweet experience of knowing the tremendous amount of work that somebody like Dustin puts in. And knowing how much relief, Dustin is probably feeling as the day is going on, and the flow is happening. But then you also see it from the side of, wow, this is a really interesting composition of what is going on in the national sphere, and in the international sphere, in a sense, related to issues with the internet, and the surrounding infrastructure and policy. And I think that's always a fascinating bird's eye view, sort of look into things because we don't often get that comprehensive overview of something as myriad and big and complex as the internet space. So being a participant is, it's a very wonderful experience. Meri Baghdasaryan 29:01 Thank you so much for sharing that. Jeremy. I definitely join both of you in encouraging people to join both as organizers and participants. And I cannot agree more with Dustin's point from earlier about having real representation and participation from everyone and having all voices be heard. But before we go to Youth IGF USA, I would love to hear Dustin and maybe main takeaways or some, you know, action items from these years IGF USA as one of the co-chairs of Internet Governance Forum USA. Dustin Loup 29:41 Yeah, thanks, Meri. And I think Jeremy captured a little bit of this. And I'll start here that the IGF USA is really unique, not just in its composition and process but I'm not familiar with another forum that goes as broad as IGF USA does on issues facing the global Internet. And so there is really, if you care about these issues at all, something that will pique your interest. I mean, this year alone, the topics ranged from discussions around content moderation, talking about encrypted messaging platforms, the security of IoT and our critical infrastructure, digital identity and the role of attributes, a forward looking session on our visions for the future, and how we enable emerging technologies to unlock that, discussions around the role of competition and antitrust policy and the future of online markets, discussions around broadband and digital equity, not just now, but in the future, and discussions around privacy, and, and then round it rounding all of this out of discussion around the global interconnected single Internet, and whether or not it can avoid fragmentation and survive the geopolitics and other factors that we are seeing threaten this cohesive internet. Unfortunately, in all of this, I haven't had a chance to tune in to all of these sessions because some of them run concurrently and by virtue of running the conference, I find myself getting pulled in a lot of different directions during some of the sessions. So I know that they were all great, the parts that I heard, were all fantastic. And we do have recordings of everything that are up. So I would encourage anyone to go watch those. But I'll speak a little bit to some of the sessions that I was able to actively participate and this ties into some of my work outside of the Internet Governance Forum world. So I'll talk a little bit about the broadband and digital equity side of things. And that that conversation started off, we kind of kicked off the morning with a fireside chat that I moderated with Alan Davidson, who is the Assistant Secretary for Commerce and communications and information with the NTIA. And the NTIA is tasked with administering this historic amount of funding that we're seeing for broadband digital equity $48 billion. And so as we think about what this massive investment means, and how we actually see the impact, he spoke about the the importance of looking at how this funding can not only address the the rural communities where they know, we know that of course, that there is a divide, but also doing as much as possible to meet the needs of urban communities and tribal communities as well. And in this process, really focus he really focused on the importance of local communities in identifying where the gaps are, and what the solutions are and the importance of the consultation with those communities and determining how these funds are, are allocated and deployed to actually get the infrastructure out to everyone that needs it, as well as to drive the adoption and application of these broadband internet services to bring people online to access all the critical services that they need that we fight for with the rest of these discussions at the Internet Governance Forum USA and all the benefits that the internet can bring. So we talked a lot about that, and then focused a little bit on the need for better data, not just in informing how money is allocated now, but informing what, what works and what doesn't work in this process, so that the future attempts can be better informed by the the outcomes that we see in in these current programs such as, such as B.E.A.D. And so there was a lot of discussion around data and broadband availability and digital equity indicators. And that also tied into a conversation that we had in the afternoon during the breakouts, where we brought in local leaders in the broadband and digital equity space, to talk about the disconnects between what local communities need and the way that these large federal programs can be structured. And talking about the ways in which putting those decisions in the hands of the community and using better data is essential to actually seeing the on the ground change that we need for true digital equity. And there was one thing during the Q&A that came up that I thought was really interesting around, a question someone asked about what does digital equity look like, and how do we know if we've reached it. And one of the speakers basically put it very well, that the digital, the digital divide, or digital inequities will always exist. It's just a matter of how we measure them and how we look at them. Even if everyone's connected, there are going to be inequities in that experience and access to services. So this is a job that is never done. And I I've heard other conversations recently around equating this to building, building a road when you build a road. You don't say it's done. And for anyone who drives the BW Parkway, they know that to be true. Because when people aren't repairing, it becomes one of the least enjoyable driving experiences that I've ever had. So this is a job that's that's never done. And I think that is true of all of these topics that we focus on. It's about making progress and making things better for the internet, but most importantly, for the people that rely on the internet and recognizing that these conversations as much as I would like to look back on some of them and say like, all right, we don't need to talk about this one anymore. That's just not the case. And so much of that is important to empower local communities. But then there's also this important aspect at the global level, and making sure that all of these things continue to actually work and interoperate. And that was another thing, like I said, we closed out the conference with a discussion about how the internet can survive war and geopolitics. And in opening fireside chat, Alan Davidson spoke about the importance of the multi stakeholder model and the this framework of the open internet that we need to keep pushing and keep fighting for because it's so critical to our society and to our world. And, and, and then we also look at the even if you don't call it fragmentation, the kind of patchwork of laws that we're seeing in the US that create potentially different experiences between the availability of access to certain platforms, experiences and information across state lines. And the and Alan Davidson called out the importance and benefit of a comprehensive federal privacy law and what that would mean not only for a more cohesive internet within the US, but also for the the leadership of the US on a global scale in advocating for this global, open Internet. And so we're still waiting on the reports from the sessions. And so keep an eye out for those. So I can't speak a whole lot to key takeaways, because those need to come from the groups that organize the sessions. But I can say that the key takeaway is that this work is always ongoing, never done and requires fresh perspectives and new people to get involved and I would to encourage all of you to join us in continuing to build on these conversations. Meri Baghdasaryan 41:28 Thank you, Dustin, this was a wonderful recap. And I can't agree more that every year, we just get more topics and more issues. And I don't really see that any of the issues are, you know, retired. And this is me speaking from a six years, six year long experience in this space. But in any case, I will also characterize these phases as a work in progress. So more things are coming up but it's always interesting, and definitely very important. Now, I would love to go back to Youth IGF USA that Jeremy already alluded to, and hear more about how this initiative came along. And how was How was it to organize? And, you know, also be present at the first inaugural Youth IGF USA. Jeremy Bernick 42:23 Yeah, thank you, Meri. So I first want to start by saying that the IGF or the Youth IGF USA was a product of the people who worked on it. And so the people that I fundamentally am grateful for, and are responsible for this are Meri, who, who is hosting today, and McKenna Bachman, who is sort of the secret sauce for everything, IGF USA, and will have an illustrious career and internet policy if she chooses to down the road with all the connections that she has. But to organize the Youth IGF USA was a real treat for me. I come from a background of organizing hackathons, which are less glamorous, in my opinion, because they aren't as generative and thought provoking. And I think I think one of the great things about being able to participate in internet governance is you're constantly around extremely intelligent, very thought provoking, and well natured people. Kind of what I had said earlier, it's, it's volunteers who do hold prominent positions, whether it's in civil society, or in law and advocacy groups, or like Alan Davidson, in the in the government. There are all these really interesting people from all walks of life, who have specialized knowledge bases, that are contributing both to this one thing, the event, but also in the process, are passing on all this specialized knowledge about topics that that do matter to everybody. And like Dustin was saying about digital equity and broadband, you know, by not participating in these conversations and these organizing committees, whether it's for the youth event or the broader event, you're not exposed to some of the challenges that are required to build out this digital age, in a way that's equitable for everybody. And so, to me, the big experience of organizing is to be around people who are amazing and occupy really interesting places in society and want to have an impact. And to me, that's a very inspiring thing. Meri Baghdasaryan 45:02 Thanks for sharing that Jeremy. And I would also add that it was a treat to work with you and McKenna and organize this inaugural event. I would also love to hear Dustin's impressions from the sessions. And any thoughts on the future of this initiative, if he already had time to think about it? Dustin Loup 45:23 Yeah, I mean, I want to thank all of you, Jeremy, Meri, and, and McKenna, and all the effort that you put into the Youth IGF USA. It was such a wonderful thing to see this come together and be entirely youth led. And I think it's a great first step to carving out critical space for those discussions to happen, and to bring more interest into these initiatives. So huge, huge, thank you and round of applause for that. And certainly looking forward to seeing where that goes. And then, of course, whatever the IGF USA can do to help foster and support that. And so I think, what's what's next on that front is up to the youth. And I look forward to seeing that, but then what is next for the IGF USA? We are wrapping up this year's process that will culminate in the submission of reports for each session that will be submitted to the Global IGF. And we try to carry forward as many of these conversations to that global discussion, which this year will be held in Ethiopia. With both in person and virtual participation option available. So that's kind of the short term next steps in, in rounding out the 2022 process. To give you a little bit of a preview for what to expect in 2023. I won't reveal any spoilers or make any guarantees. But I will say that there has long been a discussion around moving the IGF USA around and trying to host it outside of DC. So far, that has not been done, I guess, with the exception of the two years of virtual conferences that we had. But next year, we have high hopes that we might be able to work with a hosting entity to have it in, let's just say a different time zone. I won't reveal any more than that. But I will certainly keep everyone updated and encourage you to get involved and stay in the loop. And I look forward to hopefully seeing you all in January 2023. As we kick off the planning. And then later on in the year, when we have our event at a currently undetermined location. Meri Baghdasaryan 48:48 I definitely will be looking forward to reading those news. So thank you both. This was a very insightful conversation. And I hope our audience learned a lot about internet governance in general and community in U.S. And to close us off, I have one last question. So we had a lot of calls for action during our discussion. But I would love to hear your few tips to people that are newcomers or people who have never heard of internet governance and stumbled upon this podcast episode and would love to get involved. What are the steps they need to undertake? Let's start with Jeremy. Jeremy Bernick 49:29 Yeah, so I am somebody in your shoes first of all. I am somebody who, maybe a year and a half ago didn't know anything about this space. And now I'm on a podcast about it. So I would say don't be afraid to take opportunities and to reach out to people like me or Dustin or Meri. The community is really welcoming. And I think if there's anything that I can say in the form of a call to action is your voice matters. Your participation matters. Part of the issues that we're facing in the internet space, and in the broader governance space is that there are not enough voices that are coming from non institutional spaces. And so if you are a young person that occupies, you know, any space in the world, and you want to participate and have an impact on the future of a public good, like the internet, you can. And there are various organizations like the Internet Society, or ICANN, or even the Regional Internet Registries like ARIN, or whatever region you do come from, that will help you and platform you into opportunities and future success in this field. Dustin Loup 50:58 Yeah, I agree with everything that Jeremy just said. Don't be afraid to reach out, I've often said to folks trying to get involved, that if I had one piece of advice, don't be afraid to send an email, and see if you can just have a conversation with somebody. And don't be afraid to raise your hand and get involved in the opportunities that arise out of that. And some of those are with the IGF USA. So in a practical step, you can go to IGFUSA.us, and sign up for our mailing list listserv and keep an eye out for opportunities to participate in the call for topics, the planning process and to attend the the event and get to know a lot of the members of this community by working side by side with them. And I guess I'll just leave it at that because I think that's a good entry point. And I think Jeremy really did a good job of capturing the best way to go about this. Meri Baghdasaryan 52:23 That all sounds great. And I can't agree more. And we'll also make sure to include all the links and resources mentioned during this discussion. So I'd love to thank you both again, and hope our audience will be encouraged to join IGF USA and internet governance in general. Thank you. Dustin Loup 52:47 Thank you, Meri. Jeremy Bernick 52:50 Thank you, Meri. Thank you, Dustin. Reema Moussa 52:54 Thanks for listening to this episode of The Tech Policy Grind podcast. Be sure to check out the Foundry on LinkedIn and Twitter. And if you enjoyed this episode, leave us a review and give us a five star rating. It really helps out the show. If you're interested in supporting the show, reach out to us at foundrypodcasts@ILPfoundry.us. You can find our email in the show notes as well. You can see the full show notes and download the episode transcript for every episode on our website: ILPfoundry.us/podcast. The Tech Policy Grind podcast comes out every Thursday. See you next time. The Tech Policy Grind podcast was created by the fellows at the Internet Law and Policy Foundry. It's produced and edited by me Reema Mousa, with support from the incredible Foundry Fellows. Special thanks to Lama Mohammed, Allyson McReynolds and Meri Baghdasaryan for their support in bringing this episode to air. Transcribed by https://otter.ai